12-07-2002 02:34									#1
	Suggestion to do instead of unique techs Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I thought to post that in other thread but I thought this is worth thread on it's own. Many people complains about unique units and techs because it is not realistic that civs has that pre-defined - in reality, all civs became what they are because of outside reasons, not because "they are such civs". The thing which I suggest is ability to design units yourself. Yes, nations doesn't build unrequired units. I would suggest something like this (examples):
You research jet propultion. So you can build jet fighters. But now you must deign a model. You will be able to define speed, range, power, hp and computer will determinate cost for researching this type of fighters (in knowledge) and cost per fighter (in resources). Then you could name your new type (let's say "Super-3"). Each technology would have it's limits. Let's say you wouldn't be able to get a prop fighter to fly at 1000 km/h. However, although you COULD design an unit which would have all stats maximised, it would cost so much to build that it wouldn't be even useful (prices would grow hyperbolic with growing stats). So you'd have to choose which stats you want big. Let's say if your major enemy is very close, you could build a bomber with small range but instead bigger power. You could create several designs per technology. However they would be either limited, either (better decition) it would cost resources to keep designs, so you'd have to cancel old ones. Knowledge required to research a new design would depend on how far is it from older designs. If it is first design of jet fighter, it would cost much. If it is like older design, just it has a bit less range to be cheaper, it would cost not so much to research. In this way you could have your strategy. Let's say you could have 3 designs of jet fighters - one with high HP and power, but with low speed and range (for defense of base), second with high range (for bomber escorting) and third with high speed (for surprise attacks). It wouldn't be hard to program. All fighters could share the same image on map (since except stealth ones they aren't much different, same goes for most of technic), just with name written in corner. So you'd know what fighter is this. It could be done in several ways - either you'd allways know what your enemy's designs are, either you'd have to spend some knowledge on "agents" to find that out.
Example was with fighters but it could be done with nearly every unit. Let's say in early ages you could choose to give better swords or armor or better train soldiers so they'd have good speed. However, all three would be very expensive per unit, since it would require very strong men to carry heaviest armor at biggest speed.

	12-07-2002 07:25									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Good idea. However, I think the different stats should not be independent of each other. If you give a bomber more bombs, more fuel, more armor, etc, the extra weight should slow it down. It could be countered with improved engines, but only so much and improving engines any more than a tiny bit would be very costly. As for the foot units, you wouldn't need a speed stat because it would be inversely proportional to armor+weapons. So if you wanted faster foot units you would need to lighten their load and make compromises with their combat strength. IMO foot soldiers should have nearly fixed costs, but require compromises between speed (and only slight cost increase for better weapons, the biggest loss would be speed). Mounted units (better-bred horses), ships, planes, tanks, artillery should have very different costs based on the different stats. Fast light inexpensive tanks, long range powerful but slow and has-to-be-deployed artillery, fast lightly armed horsemen, etc.

	12-07-2002 08:59									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Big problem with this idea. You are talking about RTS. Who has time to design a unit during battle or the game?

As SMAC taught us, most players do not use unit workshops, they end up using what the computer gives them or the same unit they have designed every time they have played.

It is a good idea for a unit workshop, I just don't think it will work in a RTS.

	12-07-2002 14:11									#4
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Tniem, it would be very simplified - you click on type (for example, jet fighter) and you get a place to write in stats (or, even more simplified, just click on various places to upgrade from minimum stats which are written (something like unit upgrades in EE). After you done you click done, computer shows you cost per unit and knowledge needed for research. You can approve or go back. As you can see, this would be very easy. This is something like unit upgrades in EE, just you'd have first design then build not vice versa (and also you'd be able to have several designs per unit type and stats would start from minimum, not from average like in EE).

	12-07-2002 14:18									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Nice idea but it may be difficlut is an RTS as Tniem said, I think the EE way was pretty good actually.

Oh and also I think you mean exponential increase in cost NOT hyperbolic, I know it sounds expensive but a hyperbola in and x-y plot is 1/x which means the cost is huge at close to 0, and very small when x is large which I assume you mean to have more capabilities. :-)

	13-07-2002 01:53									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sonic Tniem, it would be very simplified - you click on type (for example, jet fighter) and you get a place to write in stats (or, even more simplified, just click on various places to upgrade from minimum stats which are written (something like unit upgrades in EE). After you done you click done, computer shows you cost per unit and knowledge needed for research. You can approve or go back. As you can see, this would be very easy. This is something like unit upgrades in EE, just you'd have first design then build not vice versa (and also you'd be able to have several designs per unit type and stats would start from minimum, not from average like in EE).

I'm not saying it wouldn't be easy. I am saying it isn't practical.

While it appears that RoN will be a game with more strategy than a typical RTS click fest. It is still going to be a game of quick decisions. You waste time tinkering with unit stats while I build units. So by the time you have made the unit you want (granted it might only take 30 seconds.) I have already made ten commands. You are way behind me now. You are done. Game over. It is simple as that. A unit manipulator will not work in a RTS.

	13-07-2002 02:59									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Tniem, didn't you knew that in RTS you can build units while you are doing other things at a time? And what you said is the same as to say "unit upgrades will not work. When you click on all upgrades you will waste seconds. I will build units at a time so you'll lose".

	13-07-2002 04:43									#8
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Sonic Tniem, didn't you knew that in RTS you can build units while you are doing other things at a time? And what you said is the same as to say "unit upgrades will not work. When you click on all upgrades you will waste seconds. I will build units at a time so you'll lose".

Sonic,

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. Yes I understand that you can build units while building other things. I know. I have played countless RTS and played on many MP boards (WarCraft II, StarCraft, AOE). So I understand speed strategies.

What I am saying is that if you are using a unit manipulator or whatever you want to call it, you are doing nothing else. Yes, you can build things while doing other things, but when using a Unit Manipulator that is all you can do. Why is this all you can do? Because you cannot click on your selections of weapon, armor, chasis and also order your units to move forward. There is only so much a human can do. So while you are messing around with a customized unit, that is all you are working on. For thirty seconds.

Meanwhile your opponent whose was even with you in technology uses the normal computer suggested units. Immediately he builds them. They have a thirty second head start on your customized unit because he built them before you could customize them. Then after ordering that command he still has 25 seconds or so to make orders with building new buildings, launching attacks, etc. Essentially he has an extra 30 seconds to beat the crap out of you.

So what I am saying is that a unit manipulator will not work because a human can only focus on that one thing at a time. That keeps you from building other things because you can only click on one thing at a time. Meanwhile your opponent is building up his forces, increasing his infrastructure, or sending forth an attack. Essentially game, set, match. As simple as that. No way a unit manipulator will work, no matter how simple it is.

	13-07-2002 05:07									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

exactly a unit manipulator could only work in turn based games. only way it would work in an RTS is if you have co-op play and one player is the research scientist :-)

	13-07-2002 10:38									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

how about have the game pause while in the unit editor, but only allow each person a # of pauses (decided before game by host), and allow a certain amount of pause time per unit (about 10 seconds but host can change in settings before game)

	13-07-2002 16:17									#11
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Tniem, there would be no computer predesigned units so everyone would have to design them themselves.

Also btw, maybe you are reffering to online FPS not RTS games. On RTS games you have so much spare time ussually. After you ordered all the units, set rally points to key positions, ordered several buildings to build and no one attacks base. During that time you will surely have 10-15 secs for designing. Especially with RoN AI, where you won't have to order citizens what to do. You won't have to rebuild farms like in AoE or send to the new forest if the one before exhausted. They will do that automatic. And after you ordered all the units you can with current resources they will also be built automatic. Will you click on "build new unit" button 15 minutes later then means absolutely nothing, since your new unit would get in a row after other units, which would still be produced automatically. Tniem, in RTS you have free time. Less than in TBS, but much more than in actions like counter strike. If it would be like you said, no one would do even unit upgrades. And remember RoN will also have diplomacy option, which will also require time maybe even more than unit editor (and, this editor would be just on panel if selected, not on all screen BTW).

	13-07-2002 20:10									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

well u have to have some kind of predefined unit cause even those custom units needs graphics to go with them unless u just assign them a from a list of graphics and the graphics are only used by custom units.

but this is getting really really complicated. i dont think anyone playing RTS especially within an hour wanna sit around designing units in real time.

	14-07-2002 00:40									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

ODV, as I said before, each "type" would have graphics. Let's say, Jet Fighter. Then you could design units on this type. Graphics would be the same, just name would differ (re-read my first post).

	14-07-2002 06:40									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by simwiz2 how about have the game pause while in the unit editor, but only allow each person a # of pauses (decided before game by host), and allow a certain amount of pause time per unit (about 10 seconds but host can change in settings before game)

No one is going to sit around waiting for others to design units before they get to that tech level. Interupts game play. Is not a good idea. Will not work.

quote: Originally posted by sonic Tniem, there would be no computer predesigned units so everyone would have to design them themselves.

First of all, this is not a good idea. People will not want to be forced to design units. There has to be some type of suggested unit design or average unit predone by BHG. Why you ask? After you have played 75 games, the last thing you are going to want to do is design a ton of units. Think about it. Throughout the span of time you will be discovering technology ranging from the Wheel to Space flight or something along those lines. Are you going to sit there and design units every minute when you get a new tech? Seriously, think about it. Do you really want in an hour game that spans the history of earth to design Militia, Calvary, Pikeman, Triemes, Musketeers, Rifleman, Tanks, Planes, Gunboats, and the hundreds of other units that fall in here? And not just once, every time you play. This is just not going to work. People will not want to design the units.

quote: Also btw, maybe you are reffering to online FPS not RTS games. On RTS games you have so much spare time ussually. After you ordered all the units, set rally points to key positions, ordered several buildings to build and no one attacks base. During that time you will surely have 10-15 secs for designing

No I am talking about an RTS. I don't play MP FPS, so yes I am talking about RTS. Maybe I just play harder opponents, but, no you don't have 15 seconds. There just isn't time. Maybe I am just used to bigger games, I don't know. Yes you order your units in directions and get your buildings building things. Then if you have a spare second, you go back to your attack force and regroup it or tell it to hit a certain building. That is what time is for. If not, your opponent has time to redirect his troops to hit your best units.

And it gets worse with newer RTS such as WarCraft 3. There is even more micromanagement, at least in the little MP I have played and seen. You have to look at your units and make sure they are hitting what you want to because you have smaller forces. Spells at the right time are key. More micromanagement. In RTS, if you spend 15 seconds on something unimportant and your opponent uses it wisely (which a good opponent will do) the game is over usually. There just isn't time, even if you add strategy to the game, the premise will remain, the faster and smarter player will win and that will be the one not using the unit workshop.

quote: And after you ordered all the units you can with current resources they will also be built automatic. Will you click on "build new unit" button 15 minutes later then means absolutely nothing, since your new unit would get in a row after other units, which would still be produced automatically

In this game you will be moving through history so fast that you will not have one unit for fifteen minutes. That means designing units will cost you time every minute or two with new technologies. So yes this will determine a game.

quote: Tniem, in RTS you have free time.

Well, I disagree. And if I was still playing a RTS currently than I would love to play you. I love opponents sitting around doing nothing, makes it easy for me. Get WC3 and give me a couple weeks to get acculumated and your toast. Likewise with RoN. You do not have time to do nothing. A good player will slaughter you.

Someone else has had to play enough MP RTS to know this also. Will someone give me some support on this point? I know it didn't take me long with AoE or StarCraft to figure out if you aren't doing something, your opponent is and it usually is not good for you.

	14-07-2002 06:59									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

i agree with Tniem, on all points.

also if you have free time in an RTS then you arent playing very tough opponents.

its like in EE, playing custom civ, and you see a dood who hasnt predesigned a civ, and the guy is busy picking his civ advantages for like 30 seconds. Well if I see that I already know the guys going to loose.

if you want a bit of configurating with your units, the way EE does it isnt too bad. where you can upgrade various stats on the fly like you would research it traditionally at a building. I think it was quite innovative. The ability to rename it to mojo jojo's ultimate fighter is maybe fun but kinda unnecessary, and kinda detracts from the historical feel of the game.

That being said I hope that RON will have different names and graphics for as many different units in the game. ie) germans getting tanks that look like Tiger or Panthers, and British getting ones that look like Matildas and Churchills etc.

Last edited by One_Dead_Villy on 14-07-2002 at 07:05

	14-07-2002 15:17									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Maybe you both like playing offensive game. I like defensive. This is what I do in EE atomic age for example:

First I estabilish economy by getting all iron, gold, stones sources around, also build two mills for food and also gather wood (I know rusher could kill me at this moment that's why I play no rushing games). Then I build barracks and other major military buildings. And, shortly after that I send my citizens to wall up everything, including all resources. This ussually is huge area. After that, I place one gate and also build many towers and AA turrets near wall and on the coast (if there is one. A also build several artilleries and place near the wall and several howitzers and place them near coast. Then I build at least 4 airports and several carriers, also ships to guard carriers. Airports has different fighters rally points, all over the wall just at different places, carrier planes patrols over water. I build mixed force of fighters, fighter/bombers and anti-tank planes. After I do that, I have loads of free time. My defense is very strong and opponents (if there are several of them) ussually fights each other because it is just unprofitable to send armies to me. And yes, I have no expansion towns. I use only resources in the enclosed area. There are ussually 3-4 iron and gold sources, 2-3 stone sources. After I build all the defenses, I have two strategies. One is if wonder victory is allowed, so I build the number of wonders required (very obviously with troops near them and planes circling around - after all, I am air force fanatic, I completed most of german campaign only with air force). If wonder victory isn't allowed, I still build the library to see enemy buildings and after that I build huge army. And later I am taking one enemy after another, if army gets destroyed, I do rebuild it or I have reinforcements in fortresses (if pop limit is reached). First I am taking of all AA guns and then my nuclear bombers (15 or so) does the job.

	16-07-2002 06:06									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

thats fair enough, i also like to be more defensive but thats a luxury I dont want to indulge in. so i play offensive and defensively. i dont like making artificial rules to allow myself any slack, i want to know i can handle all situations.


so what i typically do in EE is send one village to wall off my flank, build a rushing army, and try to pull off a rush if possible, if not i still have a defensive army, and at least know more or less they couldnt just walk into my flank.