03-08-2002 06:52									#91
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On instructions from the emperor of the Austrian-Hungarian empire, the President of Austria proposes a non-aggression pact with Britain and France.

Austria wishes to remain neatrul in this conflict between France and Britain but urges both countries to construct a workable peace arrangement. Maybe payments of gold to each nation and withdraw of Britain of French soldiers.

End of statement

In a statement on comment made by Russia against the Austrian-Hungarian empire, President Civfan states.
'So since Russia doesn't have the means to make an invasion of Asia Minor, does that mean Asia Minor is still open to all? First come first served?'

End of Statement.

	03-08-2002 07:34									#92
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We have no immediate means to invade Asia Minor, but if you invade it it might have consequences for your nation. We are attacking Constantinopol right now, and once it is taken we will have an acces point to Asia Minor and will begin it's invasion.

	03-08-2002 09:54									#93
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Asia minor is for you two to figure out. However I suggest North Africa be simply up for grabs for all.

As for a "reasonable" peace, France finds it unthinkable to allow a defeated and vengeful Britain to remain on our flank. The only situation I envision in which Britain would be allowed complete autonomy would involve massive demilitarisations, most importantly of their navy. It took a lot of work to create the capability to invade Britain, and I do not want to have to undertake such a daunting task a second time if they backstab me.

Although it is far too early to discuss this issue anyhow as Britain is in no way defeated, these are the only terms of peace France would ever accept:

1) The scuttling of the entire British Navy. It would be asking too much for them to hand their ships over to France; disbanding them would be sufficient. Furthermore, no more ships other than transports would be built after that point.

2) Yes, the handover of Hannover, likely to be partitioned between France and Prussia.

3) Even during peacetime the cities of Dover, Norwich, and Portsmouth would be permanently under French occupation, thereby neutralizing Britain's advantage of isolation by sea, a fact which would deter her from attempting to get revenge against France.

Nothing else would be necessary. I am not bent on conquest of Britain; my interest is in preventing an autonomous future Britain from striking back at me, an interest which these terms fulfill. If they are indeed unacceptable to Russia, then I suppose she can reconsider as she wishes. I hope for peace in Europe as you all do, but the fact is that such a peace will be hard to maintain with a completely intact Britain which would feel unrestricted due to isolation provided by water and warships.

As for Spain, it would be impractical for Britain to play it at any time since they are at war with Britain... I guess I could stand having the other three players do it but they too could always have conflicts of interest. Also Spain would be militarily impotent because its grand strategies would change each and every turn.

Last edited by Darius871 on 03-08-2002 at 10:02

	03-08-2002 16:14									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 I sincerely hope Britain makes the same mistake with their ships again.

HAHA 3 quarter of my units weren't movable in my first turn there was nothing I could do about it. France achieved a very cheap victory. And I'm completely against Darius playing Spain too as this is an unfair advantage for him. Even as they are allies and it is forbidden for Spain to talk with France it's still a difference if the countries are played by two or one guy. He can coordinate his attacks 100% e.g: attacking with the Spanish units first weakening me and then just march in with the French troops and occupy city after city. So when the time came and Spain attacks France it will be very weak while France got all the cities and units intact. A different player could perhaps even stay out of the whole affair or he would try to get cities for himself. So in this situation Spain is nothing more than a puppet for France and I strictly disagree with it. Let's find some else or let the AI handle it this is just fair.

So now to business:
Thx to the glorious Royal Navy AND their armed forces we were able to conquer back all the cities we were roped from the French guys. The soldiers heard complaints from the citizens of being roped of all their possessions and being tortured by Frenchies so this means we will fight even harder to pay it back.

However as British possessions are again in rightful British hand we are considering a PEACE TREATY with France as we are wishing nothing else than peace. We were always a peaceloving nation but as our way of life was disturbed by the French we had no choice as to declare war and preserve prosperity and welfare in Europe. Therefore we signed a defensive alliance with the Prussians and their wise king Smaug as he realized the danger coming from France. So everything France will do to us will be paid back three times by the brave Prussian soldiers. We furthermore hope monarchs of other countries will realize how dangerous such French warmongering is for the stability of Europe and will join us in our fight so once again peace can be established. (I mean just look at his army: he got more than 200 units, Britain just 100 and everybody else around the same level so if we don't bind together France will first conquer Britain than Prussia, than Austria and afterwards Russia. Sure Britain alone cannot stop him but when we all help together we got more units and we have a fair chance in stopping him).

	03-08-2002 16:17									#95
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Oh and here's the file in case somebody might need it

Attachment: jul_1803_uk.net
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	03-08-2002 18:47									#96
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Well actually I haven't coordinated attacks at all nor will I; there aren't even any French troops in Spain. And meanwhile I haven't done eanything even remotely close to purposefully weakening Spain and/or using its units far more liberally than French troops since Spain is not my civ. I hold their soldiers and sailors to the highest standard, and I am currently building countless city improvements in the country (primariliy foundries) to give them better capability i nthe long term. I've played two players before, and I know how to be objective with them.

This is moot anyhow; of course Britain would not want me playing Spain, because they know that if the AI did it there would be dozens of Spanish ships stupidly all around to pick off with ease. He speaks of unfair advantage; well I say that an AI Spain is an unfair advantage for him. It would be equivalent to Britain and Prussia in their new alliance making war with us, but with their Prussian ally being doomed to certain destruction because I demanded that they be AI.

If you really think that I would stoop so low as to be unfair with my use of Spain, then fine; I have no problem with someone new play them. What I will not accept is an AI control so bloody stupid it is literally useless. You would sink the entire Spanish Navy in three turns or less because of its suicidally poor AI player. Does this in any way sound reasonable to you?

Also, it is not forbidden to speak with Spain at the moment (unless something's broken) as just this last turn I was able to secure full Spanish commitment against Britain by negotiating with the AI. On a separate note I also gifted Spain all my techs. Why the hell would I do that if I were unfairly weakening her for our coming war?

quote: We furthermore hope monarchs of other countries will realize how dangerous such French warmongering is for the stability of Europe and will join us in our fight so once again peace can be established.

Where is this goddam warmongering you speak of? As shown by my earlier post we want peace as much as you do if not more, but to secure French safety we want it to be a stable peace where a warmongering Britain would not be able to continually threaten us. Their only true mission is to prevent the spread of humanist and democratic ideals throughout Europe. History proves that the side which knowingly fights for autocracy and opression will always lose. Britain willl continue to spew propagandist lies about their making war in order to bring peace (how ironic), when their true goal is simply the destruction of France as a power, and they don't care how many Prussian, Russian, or Austrian young men they must sacrifice to complete the task.

She acts as if the "fall" of Britain would mean a domino effect in central and eastern Europe. But how would I even ever dare undertake such an immense task when I am not even going to completely invade Britain? All I am going to do is secure a few ports there to be able to deter them from continued warmongering. Their accusations are completely groundless for I have never shown that I have the manpower or even the intent to "conquer" "Prussia, then Austria, then Russia". I have no desire to "conquer" anybody, only to make a peace with Great Britain which neccesity will make them unable to break in the future.

This French warmongering is a myth. If I were a warlike megalomaniac I would want every British city on the globe under my control. Rather all I am doing is defending my country from continued aggression from Great Britain. It's just that this time I will "defend" by taking away our enemy's capability to make war and be sure that they will have to keep the peace that they PRETEND to want.

	03-08-2002 19:09									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 I've played two players before, and I know how to be objective with them. This is moot anyhow; of course Britain would not want me playing Spain, because they know that if the AI did it there would be dozens of Spanish ships stupidly all around to pick off with ease. He speaks of unfair advantage; well I say that an AI Spain is an unfair advantage for him. If you really think that I would stoop so low as to be unfair with my use of Spain, then fine; I have no problem with someone new play them. Also, it is not forbidden to speak with Spain at the moment (unless something's broken) as just this last turn I was able to secure full Spanish commitment against Britain by negotiating with the AI. Rather all I am doing is defending my country from continued aggression from Great Britain.

Ok I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or insult you in any way I just think that nobody can really be 100% neutral and always will try to win and do actions in their favour often we don't recognzize it ourselves we do it automatically. I know you are a respected and well trust person here, saw many of your posts. However I'm not so familiar with the Civ engine and I always thought the AI is very good and the computer knows how to defend and attack properly but you're the expert and if you think it isn't good enough than let's find another one think this will be fair for everyone.

Hmm one thing is strange I read in my eventfile it's forbidden for Spain and France to negotiate with each other. Is there a new version out perhaps I'm not up-to-date on this one.

One last one you saíd you're defending your country. Hmm I always thought defending means stay in your homeland and defend it against invaders I didn't know invading other countries and take cities from them also is a defensive movement Well let's face it pal you have more units that GB and Prussia together so it would be no problem for you to take us out one by one because you can always concentrate on one country only if we band together there is a chance of beating your overwhelming military advantage.

	03-08-2002 19:19									#98
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Do you think I want to invade Britain and Prussia? I don't even want to invade Britain!

And yes, it is a completely normal concept to make small advances and fortify in a defensive war. Look at World War II; Britain and the U.S. invaded in a war in which Britain and its allies were attacked and invaded (or invasion was attempted anyhow). It was not a war in which Britain was on the offensive from the get-gol rather they simply knew that the only way to defend was the extinguish the enemy's ability to offend in the future. Or you could look at the Napoleonic Wars of reality. The nations that had defended themselves agreed that the last act of defense would be the destructio of the enemy's offensive capability through offensive operations.

That is the nature of this war as well; defensive offense. Only noted desires of an intent to subjugate all British cities would say that I was fighting an "offensive" war, but there have been none. THe mere fact that troops rae on the offensive does not mean that a nation hoped to conquer all that it sees.

BTW the Civ AI is truly useless. I completely quit playing single player long ago because it is so stupid. All it knows is to destroy any enemy units in sight, rather than plan specific and successful offensives. They consistently leave units alone in vulnerable places, and also inexplicably place them in areas where they are of no use to them (i.e. mountains or the Sahara).

Last edited by Darius871 on 03-08-2002 at 19:25

	03-08-2002 22:14									#99
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If France continues to insist on the peace treaty they showed above Russia will break it's treaty with France, becasue what France is doing is not preserving peace, but eliminating the competition.

	04-08-2002 03:59									#100
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just curious to know but whos turn is it? I think its Prussia!

	04-08-2002 08:51									#101
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quote: If France continues to insist on the peace treaty they showed above Russia will break it's treaty with France, becasue what France is doing is not preserving peace, but eliminating the competition.

Aw, crums. I guess that's how it is then.

	04-08-2002 09:03									#102
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As of right now, no treaties exist between Russia and France. Russia warns France that if they continue their agression against other countries in Europe, Russia will take messures against France

	04-08-2002 09:09									#103
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Britain is the only nation of Europe we would ever imagine making agression against (limited agression at that; I won't even conquer them if they agree to my terms anytime in the future). If Prussia wishes to attack France in assistance of Britain that is their choice, but do not mistake this as French "agression" against Prussia as it is the other way around.

	05-08-2002 04:24									#104
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We do not want to see Western Europe dominated by France. We sucgest that a peace be signed, on terms, like Honnover to France, and Portugal to Spain, or something close to that. That is of cource if Britain agrees. As of right now Russia will stay neutral, but we do not like the war, and if it goes on for too long we will interfere.

	05-08-2002 08:28									#105
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I suppose I would accept the Portugal and Hannover solution, but I'm betting Britain won't.

	05-08-2002 10:33									#106
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Hi did Smaug disappear? Its his turn right?
hmm

	05-08-2002 15:31									#107
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Ok I send Smaug a PM hope he will continue to play soon and when he returns and we find nobody else for Spain it's also ok for me if Darius play Spain too as I don't want to block this game.

Furthermore I cannot accept the so-called "solution". Why should I give up all my territory. If I hand over Pórtugal and MY German possessions, what’s left? Stormbringer was right: France tries to cripple Britain as much as possible and afterwards put a harsh treaty on us. This is really nothing else than eliminating the competition. We are a peaceloving nation and we are committed to peace but not for the price of self-destruction.

	05-08-2002 23:26									#108
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But this was Russia's suggestion, not mine. If even this is too harsh then I don't know what isn't. You'd still get to keep your navy and your geographic advantage, so it seems reasonable to me and apparently him.

	06-08-2002 01:22									#109
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It is just a proposal. If Britain does not sees it fair, then the war will go on. We just do not want France to try to make peace where Britain would be totaly cripled, and France would rule western Europe

	07-08-2002 10:08									#110
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Who's turn is it? Smaug's? What should we do if he doesn't show up?

	07-08-2002 15:39									#111
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Hi everyone! May I take over Prussia if he doesn't come back?

	07-08-2002 22:21									#112
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yes, you can have Prussi, if he doesn't show up in 2 days

	08-08-2002 01:23									#113
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Well perhaps we can talk about handing over Hannover but not whole Portugal too. I mean if I would give up all this then Britain will surely be crippled and more or less knocked out.

I think we should allow Metternich to play immediately as I send Smaug a PBEM and get no response furthermore he disappeared without saying a word and we are waiting 4 days now.

Oh Hallo Fürst Metternich schön sie kennenzulernen, auch vom Adel wie ich sehe ?

	08-08-2002 06:12									#114
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I don't see how this cripples Britain. In real history, what real decisive effects did Portugal have on the entire war? The home islands and the navy which protected them were what shot out Britians power, not some measly ports in Iberia.

	08-08-2002 22:20									#115
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I will be gone for three weeks starting today. Anyone who subs for Russia needs to move troops to Finland, and to the south, attack Constantinopol, and cities around it, and keep fighting in the Caucuss(sp?) mountains. I will be back on teh 29th

	08-08-2002 23:17									#116
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Thank you for the information. So do you think we can sub for him or is it better if we find someone from outside?

	09-08-2002 02:38									#117
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I think it will be fine if civfan subs for me. He is Austria, and is going to attack Balkhans too, so it should not be a problem

	09-08-2002 04:41									#118
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ok will do so

need password

	09-08-2002 07:57									#119
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I did not put the password on, so you don't need it

	09-08-2002 13:49									#120
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OK everybody: as one player had changed and we are now on the 5th page I thought I re-post the turnoder so we don't have to pull back to the first page to see it. Because von Blücher for example always needs to turn to the first page to see when his turn comes up

UK: von Blücher
Prussia: Fürst Metternich
Austria: Civfan
Russia: Stormbringer (for the moment: Civfan)
France: Darius871