22-07-2002 22:42									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann I think this is the way to go: You don't have hard wood so you can't build huge constructions, but you can build small ones, same with marble and clay. Now it is the question if you really need marble to build a wall or if it will normal stone do too. My conclusion here is that you don't need the fine stone. Another aspect here is this "The rich gets richer problem" wouldn't be so huge, because not everyone could build the same wonders. For paper: Actual there are alot of ways to make it. You could use grass, wool, cotton, wood. Actual you don't need speceal wood like hard wood just common wood that could be found in the nearest place. But a preriquisite for paper would be writing. Once you know writing you have to find a better and easier way to write something down. For writing: I would make it rather event depending, once your first city has grown to size 5 for instance you need to write something down in order to be able to organize your growing civilization, alternative this advance could be researched if you founded you second city. Martin

Yeah this is a nice way to do it, writing before paper.

Our Ancestor's in europe(Celtic people's) never,apparently, had an organised written language.A few 'elite' individuals held all the legistative knowledge needed by memmory - yep guess i'd have to be a warrior/farmer in that case.

	23-07-2002 18:05									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann Yes it is a start but a very good one

I'm glad you like it

quote: Now it is the question if you really need marble to build a wall or if it will normal stone do too. My conclusion here is that you don't need the fine stone.

Yes, I guess that's true. Basically all you need is hills to be able to build city walls and wonders such as Stonehenge or the Pyramids...

quote: For paper: Actual there are alot of ways to make it. You could use grass, wool, cotton, wood. Actual you don't need speceal wood like hard wood just common wood that could be found in the nearest place.

The most common materials used for paper throughout history have been flax, hemp, cotton, etc. Creating paper out of wood is a fairly recent invention: the idea first came up in the 18th century but until the late 19th century, early 20th century (when various chemicals where added to the recipe) the quality of such paper was very poor, so I don't think it should be possible to use wood for paper in the game (BTW, Paper was invented in the early 2nd century AD in China, in case you didn't know). Cotten, Hemp, Flax and maybe Wool and Papyrus, that should pretty much be it if the above list can be regarded as complete.

quote: For writing: I would make it rather event depending, once your first city has grown to size 5 for instance you need to write something down in order to be able to organize your growing civilization, alternative this advance could be researched if you founded you second city.

I like this...

quote: Salt: I think I will use the salt shaker as graphic for that Harlan presented in the Civ3 creation forum. The glass transparency effect will look wonderfull on a CTP2 map.

That makes sense, I had noticed that Civ3 good already (although I didn't get the idea from Harlan - for a change )

Well, if the list of resources mentions above is (more or less) useful, then the next step would be to design a tech tree that fits it. How would you go about this? Start from sratch? Use the original/MM2/Cradle tree as basis? I would like to use this idea for my own mod, which uses MedMod as basis. Also I personally think that the MedMod tech tree is of an unprecedented quality. So personally I would be most interested in seeing a modified MedMod tech tree for this, but I don't know what you, Martin, had in mind yourself... Since I don't have time to work on my own mod anytime son anyway, I wouldn't mind helping out in designing some other tech tree, as long as it fits in my schedule...

	24-07-2002 04:34									#33
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I've designed a few tech trees in my time and I'll volunteer to have at this one if you like - I've got oodles of time on my hands right now . It would be a good test of CTPEd - let me know what new features would be nice (Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to implement them soon since my laptop with the source code on is off for repairs).

My usual technique is to begin with the units / buildings and then build the tree aroud them, but this tree would be more complicated, I think. I'd be tempted to start from scratch and draw on the MM tree for inspiration rather than modify it, since that is likely to confuse the issue since this is a fairly radical new concept.

There's a couple of things like IW's idea of having or-gate style links which I'd like to try.

So, Martin, say the word and I'll have at it, but it'll have to be soon or not at all - middle of August I'll be dumped into doing all my Uni holiday work.

If the tree is begun it should help to clarify what goods are relevant, and prevent over-emphasis on any one region of the tree - does anyone have any ideas about luxury goods?

	24-07-2002 05:17									#34
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Hey, sounds good to me

	24-07-2002 16:52									#35
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway I've designed a few tech trees in my time and I'll volunteer to have at this one if you like - I've got oodles of time on my hands right now . It would be a good test of CTPEd - let me know what new features would be nice (Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to implement them soon since my laptop with the source code on is off for repairs).

I intended it to use it and of course request new features. The first thing I would like to see is that the latest Great Library style would support the not having the gap between the { and the rest of the text.

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway My usual technique is to begin with the units / buildings and then build the tree aroud them, but this tree would be more complicated, I think. I'd be tempted to start from scratch and draw on the MM tree for inspiration rather than modify it, since that is likely to confuse the issue since this is a fairly radical new concept.

I would say this time it has to be designed around the goods. Not that there will be a lot of techs that will be given by goods that will allow to research the actual techs.

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway There's a couple of things like IW's idea of having or-gate style links which I'd like to try.

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway So, Martin, say the word and I'll have at it, but it'll have to be soon or not at all - middle of August I'll be dumped into doing all my Uni holiday work.

As I know Locutus has to do a lot with his real life and Apolyton you have it.

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway If the tree is begun it should help to clarify what goods are relevant, and prevent over-emphasis on any one region of the tree - does anyone have any ideas about luxury goods?

As I already pointed out Locutus' list is a start but I still whish to add something and maybe to change something. But I have to give this later. So far start with Locutus list and of course add some future stuff, I reall want to see an UFO and a verson on the AI Entity in this mod although the effect of the AI Entity can't be so strong as in CTP1. More will follow later.

-Martin

	24-07-2002 17:32									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann I intended it to use it and of course request new features. The first thing I would like to see is that the latest Great Library style would support the not having the gap between the { and the rest of the text.

I am rather frustrated that I can't continue with it since I was in the mood to and couldn't. I don't know when I'm likely to get my computer back...

quote: I would say this time it has to be designed around the goods. Not that there will be a lot of techs that will be given by goods that will allow to research the actual techs.

Indeed, but it is foolish to simply include the techs and then try and concieve of things which you would like them to lead to - I have made this mistake in the past. Would you like to use the units from the MedMod as a basis for the units here, or something else? Similarly for the buildings. Are you hoping to integrate the visible wonders code?

quote: As I know Locutus has to do a lot with his real life and Apolyton you have it.

OK, I'll try not to dissapoint you.

quote: As I already pointed out Locutus' list is a start but I still whish to add something and maybe to change something. But I have to give this later.

Obviously the sooner the better.

quote: So far start with Locutus list and of course add some future stuff,

I'll start with his list of first choices and see where I go from there.

quote: I reall want to see an UFO and a verson on the AI Entity in this mod although the effect of the AI Entity can't be so strong as in CTP1.

I take it from this that you don't want to conform too closely to what has gone before. I'll consider myself given a free reign .

quote: More will follow later.

Again, the sooner the better. I'll get started right away.

Some questions: in order to add to the future stuff what kind of resources (if any) do you think might be needed for the following:

Fibre optics
Aircraft
Stealth aircraft
Stealth subs
Space craft
Superconductors (cold and/or room temperature)

	24-07-2002 17:37									#37
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Incidentally, by giving my control over the tech tree you do realise that it is likely to be biased towards Maths and the physical sciences . But since progress in applied science and other such things is most likely to be held up by a lack of goods, I think this will be a good thing - it will give you something to do while you're desperately trying to claim a good.

	24-07-2002 17:58									#38
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Sorry for chain-posting but I thought of one more thing - what prefix would you like to use for the files in this mod? GM2? GDA?

	24-07-2002 22:34									#39
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Indeed, but it is foolish to simply include the techs and then try and concieve of things which you would like them to lead to - I have made this mistake in the past. Would you like to use the units from the MedMod as a basis for the units here, or something else? Similarly for the buildings. Are you hoping to integrate the visible wonders code?

I think if I do it myself I would end of reinventing of one of the already given tech trees, therefore it wouldn't be a problem to start with MedPack units and buildings. My main concern is that it should be possible to finish the science victory in the given number of turns, one thing that I missed in ApolytonPack and MedPack2, there are two ways to reduce the number of turns in order to achieve the science victory faster. One possibility would be to reduce the number of techs, the other way would be to allow alternative branches. You need one of them to achieve the science victory but not all of them.

For the wonders: To see the AI Entity on the map would be cool, so the visible wonder mod will be in. But I think this wonder will give you only a normal happiness bonus instaed of the content bonus.

Now for the good list:

Submarine Volcano:

This terrain is seldom therefore it shouldn't be a balance problem to use here Saphires instead of Crabs. Submarine Volcano can only be found in deep water therefore that shouldn't be a problem with the fishery.

Swamp:

Chilli is a luxurary good and Rice could be used for Agriculture, therefore it is Rice instaed of Chilli there.

In general there won't be such things like Elephants and Horses on the same terrain, that isn't good for balance also two kinds of grain won't be found on the same terrain, same for drugs. (Poppies, Tobacco and Grapes) These drugs should make the population "happy". So prefer the goods that aren't luxuraries only.

One final not about Dye, from the Civ3 Great Library (a much better word for Civilopedia), I know that Dye can also be used for Explosives.

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Some questions: in order to add to the future stuff what kind of resources (if any) do you think might be needed for the following: Fibre optics Aircraft Stealth aircraft Stealth subs Space craft Superconductors (cold and/or room temperature)

Unfortunatly here I can't help you I only know that "hot" Superconductors are some sort of ceramics, therefore for that you don't need any good probably. For the other ones maybe someone else has an idea.

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Sorry for chain-posting but I thought of one more thing - what prefix would you like to use for the files in this mod? GM2? GDA?

For the prefix I already created a file called GM2_readme.txt, so you know now the prefix. That should be all for now.

-Martin

	25-07-2002 03:21									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann I think if I do it myself I would end of reinventing of one of the already given tech trees, therefore it wouldn't be a problem to start with MedPack units and buildings.

Will do.

quote: My main concern is that it should be possible to finish the science victory in the given number of turns, one thing that I missed in ApolytonPack and MedPack2, there are two ways to reduce the number of turns in order to achieve the science victory faster. One possibility would be to reduce the number of techs, the other way would be to allow alternative branches. You need one of them to achieve the science victory but not all of them.

I am tending towards the latter - I have always in the past made it necessary to research every single tech, but in a tree like this (especially if I can make the or-gates work well) you should be able to skip things, IMO. Perhaps something like the tech dissemination code from the MM for CTP1 could be included to represent trade and fill in the gaps in your knowledge which you passed by. If this could be made sensetive to geographic proximity and diplomatic relation then that would be excellent.

quote: For the wonders: To see the AI Entity on the map would be cool, so the visible wonder mod will be in. But I think this wonder will give you only a normal happiness bonus instaed of the content bonus.

If visible wonders is in I'll base my choice of wonders on that released by IW.

It might also be a good idea to code the entity revolting code manually in SLIC so that the fraction of the empire that you lose can be reduced.

quote: Now for the good list: Submarine Volcano: This terrain is seldom therefore it shouldn't be a balance problem to use here Saphires instead of Crabs. Submarine Volcano can only be found in deep water therefore that shouldn't be a problem with the fishery.

If you're going to have so many goods on the volcanoes is there any way you can increase the probability that a good is on any one square so that you are likely to actually find them.

quote: Swamp: Chilli is a luxurary good and Rice could be used for Agriculture, therefore it is Rice instaed of Chilli there.

I think rice should be more widespread than that, but perhaps not. I've no idea how much rice there would be if it was not cultivated.

---

I've cleared out the existing advances and obtained a blank slate, so I should be able to proceed with initial construction now.

Can you (or anyone) supply some basic code for making the good-dependant advances themselves for playtesting purposes.

	25-07-2002 04:11									#41
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WOW almost done... couldn't really under everything

BTW is there a volcano on land?

	25-07-2002 05:52									#42
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Before all the excitement began (am i late?) did someone tested the SendGood event or any other event that will be related to this mod?

	25-07-2002 10:18									#43
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Some questions: in order to add to the future stuff what kind of resources (if any) do you think might be needed for the following: Fibre optics Aircraft Stealth aircraft Stealth subs Space craft Superconductors (cold and/or room temperature)

Martin's right, "hot" superconductors tend to be ceramics, and from what I recall, the main thing that they have in common are that they all seem to involve "sheets" of copper and oxygen atoms mixed with other elements such as yttrium, barium, calcium etc. One common one for example, has the formula YBa2Cu3O8 I'm not sure of any recent events with superconductors, but as of about ten years ago the so called "hot" superconductors still would only function at a maximum temperature of 125 K (-148 C), which would require something along the lines of liquid nitrogen. Cold superconductors tend to be metal alloys taken to liquid helium temperatures. Of cold superconductors, AFAIK, the one that functions at the highest temperature is a niobium-germanium alloy. It shows superconduction at around 23 K ( -250 C).

Hopefully, that will help with coming up with something for the superconductor dependence. Room temperature superconductors may be a good candidate for future techs.

Fiber optics... I'd have to read up on, but some obvious prerequisites will be a the availability of plastics and/or glass, along with a knowledge of optics, electronics, and magnetics.

Aircraft: Physics, aerodynamics, lightweight materials, perhaps aluminum/ Al Alloys.

Stealth: IIRC, Stealth aircrafts have a ceramic outer casing that absorbs the radar waves...Stealth subs, no clue...(silent propulsion may be one possibility)

Space craft: Again, ceramics come into play for the heat resistance. You may also want to think about the possibilty of the spacecraft, harnessing nuclear fusion (or fission) in which case you might want to look toward the actinides on the periodic table. (cold fusion may be another obviously good choice for a future tech.)

Hopefully some of this will help, if not than thanks for giving me the opportunity babble

	25-07-2002 16:04									#44
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quote: Originally posted by HuangShang WOW almost done... couldn't really under everything

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. Almost begun, perhaps .

quote: BTW is there a volcano on land?

Nope. (Well, there is in the Samurai scenario and Big Mc made one for land, but not in the default game).

	25-07-2002 18:15									#45
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One issue should be when trading these goods between nations, does that give you access to the technology dependant on that good? The answer of course should be yes, but does the program keep track of what specific good you are receiving through trade or just the amount of gold you are receiving.

	25-07-2002 20:48									#46
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quote: Originally posted by ahenobarb One issue should be when trading these goods between nations, does that give you access to the technology dependant on that good? The answer of course should be yes, but does the program keep track of what specific good you are receiving through trade or just the amount of gold you are receiving.

That's the reason why the SendGood event must work, so once the good is sended I can extract the good that was sent the owners of the two cities. But I have no doubt that this event will do what it promises, although I didn't test it.

It would be more difficuilt to give a bonus each turn the trade route exists, as there is no function that checks what good does a city receives every turn. Of course I could use the information from the SendGood event and store it in an array, the huge problem would be only that the whole information gets lost if you reloadslic, that's also one problem in DiploMod.

-Martin

	25-07-2002 21:10									#47
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quote: Originally posted by centrifuge Aircraft: Physics, aerodynamics, lightweight materials, perhaps aluminum/ Al Alloys. Stealth: IIRC, Stealth aircrafts have a ceramic outer casing that absorbs the radar waves...Stealth subs, no clue...(silent propulsion may be one possibility)

Don't forget engines.. meaning some fuel chemists and of course... can't think of any right now

	26-07-2002 02:54									#48
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway Fibre optics Aircraft Stealth aircraft Stealth subs Space craft Superconductors (cold and/or room temperature)

Fibre Optics: Glass, maybe Oil (for plastics).

Aircraft: for early aircraft all you really need is an engine, iow Oil. For modern aircraft high-quality light-weight materials are needed such as Aluminum (=Bauxite), and maybe Tungsten and copper for the weapons and other electrical equipment..

Stealth aircraft: basically the same as what you need for regular modern aircraft.

Stealth subs: tough one, I guess the same as a regular sub: Oil for fuel. Maybe Copper and/or Tungsten for elecronics/weapons.

Superconductor: Tungsten is the strongest and most heat-resisting metal there is, that would definitely have to be a requirement for Superconductors. I've seen this in several mods for other games as well.

	26-07-2002 03:46									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Stealth subs: tough one, I guess the same as a regular sub: Oil for fuel. Maybe Copper and/or Tungsten for elecronics/weapons. Superconductor: Tungsten is the strongest and most heat-resisting metal there is, that would definitely have to be a requirement for Superconductors. I've seen this in several mods for other games as well.

Sorry to have to disagree with you Locutus, but the leading fuel source for subs since (IIRC) the 1950's has been nuclear.

Tungsten is a good choice for superconductors, but unfortunately not the best, the reason that I say this is that it is necessary to take it to lower temperatures than other choices. Check out this site, it has a ton of info on superconductors: http://superconductors.org/

Also, it appears that I was wrong with my numbers in my previous post. The record high temp for superconduction is now 138 K (-135 C)
...Not that it really matters, cold is cold.

	26-07-2002 04:49									#50
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D'oh! You're absolutely right of course, I had totally overlooked Uranium. That could be used for stealth subs (and maybe some future units too).

As far as superconductors go, I wouldn't want to overuse Copper too much. It's already an important ancient age good and you'll probably need it for Electricity as well, but it IMHO shouldn't be required for too many units/advances, otherwise you'd get too far behind. So you'd have to alternate the various metals a bit, choice copper for some units, tungsten, aluminum or iron for others. Tungsten seems to fit well with Superconductors, even if it isn't 100% accurate.

Then again, maybe we could represent ceramics itself. Does anyone know what ceramics are made of? 'Classic' ceramics such as porcelein are made of clay or similar materials but I know nothing about modern ceramics as used in superconductors or modern aircraft (stealth or otherwise), but I'm guessing it's a very generic group of materials and therefore not very useful to us...

	26-07-2002 09:40									#51
	Inflate your Upload Space

Just one the writing/paper thing mentioned a few posts ago. Wasn't the first thing humans wrote on with an alphabet human skin?

That opens a whole bag of worms! Slaves can be strategic goods which enable diplomats to be born!

	26-07-2002 10:28									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Then again, maybe we could represent ceramics itself.

I believe that we should if possible, ceramics are a very important part of history, ranging from pottery to the space shuttle. You'll have to forgive me, my bacheleors degree is in chemistry, and my Masters is in materials science and engineering, so this is an area that I get a little but anal about.

I'll check around a bit further and if I think that I can come up with something that will work, I'll post it.

	26-07-2002 10:38									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus As far as superconductors go, I wouldn't want to overuse Copper too much. It's already an important ancient age good and you'll probably need it for Electricity as well, but it IMHO shouldn't be required for too many units/advances, otherwise you'd get too far behind. So you'd have to alternate the various metals a bit, choice copper for some units, tungsten, aluminum or iron for others.

This is a good Idea, copper isn't the only necessity for conduction, so maybe we can have a branch at this point that allows a civ to gain electricity, superconduction etc. if they have a different conducting resource. What I mean by this, is that the use of different materials will come to almost the same conclusion ( maybe with a lower quality outcome if at all possible, but I know that this is pushing it)

	26-07-2002 16:40									#54
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Early ceramics were simple clay open-fire fired pots, maybe with a potash glaze(fire ashes and water) as the containers needed to be more impervious to liquids.

I would say the single most important advance was the kiln - this allowed the higher temperature fireing and the first proper 'commercial' pottery, either earthenware(around 800 degrees) and stoneware (about 1100 degrees- these figures may be off a little!).

So for anything other than primative pottery you need a decent fireing process. I'd say from the games point of view, that about the same time 'forge' can be built then the technology for a good kiln would be available(very rough maybe - but neat)

In industrial ceramics then everything is just refined xN:

The glaze would need a better understanding of glasses,
Fireing tempretures would need to be increased,
Clay would be a refined resource.

	27-07-2002 02:47									#55
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OK, I have retrieved the CTPEd source code so now the 'design a tech tree' is turning into 'Update CTPEd to make designing the tech tree easier', which is naturally slowing progress. It's surprising how much time I seem to be spending doing other stuff...

Anyway, I hope to have more progress to report soon.

	27-07-2002 20:15									#56
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway OK, I have retrieved the CTPEd source code so now the 'design a tech tree' is turning into 'Update CTPEd to make designing the tech tree easier', which is naturally slowing progress. It's surprising how much time I seem to be spending doing other stuff...

Yeah but actual the time is well spend, that is indeed a welcome side effect.

-Martin

	16-08-2002 22:16									#57
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*Bump*

And a (complete lack of) progress report.

I've done nothing significant, though (as Martin knows) I've made some progress with CTPEd instead. Now I have to focus on Uni work instead so if anyone else want's to take over, they are more than welcome.

	22-08-2002 19:55									#58
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Any progress. THe advance trees sounds great.
NOt to get into the weeds but one thing about separate tech trees would be that they must be limited to eras.

I'm barely figuring out SLIC, but i wonder if this is possible. Can you SLIC tile improvements with values? I know IW said you can assign a value to buildings to mak a simulation of culture. The hard part was being able to know how much you had and the AI trying to acquire it.

But as a possibility maybe different resources allow you to build only certain tile improvements and that improvement creates a number of that resource per turn. then building the unit will require shield and a number of resources per turn. just a thought.

	31-08-2002 09:17									#59
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Martin,I have tested the SendGood event and it did worked.
Did you start any coding already? If yes, may i see it?

	31-08-2002 17:18									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Pedrunn Martin,I have tested the SendGood event and it did worked. Did you start any coding already? If yes, may i see it?

Actual I started to modify GoodMod again to release GoodMod1 v.1.0. I started to rewrite the old scripts to improve them and to remove the last DebugSlic=Yes errors. So far I have no tech tree. I only know that I will use the mod_CanPlayerHaveAdvance function to keep players from researching advances instead of using dummy advances. What me really concerns is that the information gained by the SendGood event is that it has to be gathered into arrays, I can't recreate the information if someone reloadslic. I can recontruct some pieces of the information by checking the advances a player has. But I can't check if there is international trade. Therefore I know that it is very difficuilt to do it so that you can research if you get the good by trade. I could make it so that the good is required to start research the tech, and if the contact to the good is lost it is not possible anymore to start the research that would also happen if you reloadslic. So far I need a tech tree.

-Martin