04-08-2002 19:11									#31
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quote: t is not MY technique. In fact I don't know who discovered that,

Cool. Next time I edit the info thread over at CFC, I'll add the 0-science technique.... my one einstein method is needlessly mathmatical. I evolved the bulk of my own Civ2 playing in isolation, so I have some oddball techniques .

Yup, I've read about Samson's discoveries, and posted some of his quotes and source links to here at Apolyton for some people at CFC that were trying to learn about the Key Civ & science cost stuff. Samson & Oedo have really made some great discoveries on the fundamentals of the game!!

quote: well, I'm sure you would enjoy reading the whole GL

I've read 6 or 7 things, and hope to eventually read it all .

	04-08-2002 20:24									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Starlifter I evolved the bulk of my own Civ2 playing in isolation, so I have some oddball techniques .

I know what it is, since the same happened to me before discovering Apolyton in October 2000 .
You should have talked with smash: he is the one who has been posting on both forums (Poly and CFC) for quite a while (though quite a number of educated people have started doing that more recently: Ming, Sodaq, SlowThinker ... and certainly many others that I don't have in mind just now).

	09-08-2002 10:51									#33
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ST, I dl'd your civ2beakers.exe, but now I can't figure out how to use it. When I double-click to open the program, it just goes back and forth between my taskbar and my desktop without opening. What should I be doing?

I use Windows ME at home, NT at work. Maybe it's OS-dependent?

Determining the TOTAL number of beakers needed for the next tech is easy. Does your program calculate the REMAINING number of beakers needed?

Xin Yu, can you programmatically find the REMAINING number needed?

	09-08-2002 22:27									#34
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quote: Originally posted by debeest ...your civ2beakers.exe... I use Windows ME at home, NT at work...

No such a program under MacOS ?

	10-08-2002 00:44									#35
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debeest,
I use Win98 only, the program is compilated with Delphi5 under Win98. I have no clue...Does anybody other have any similar problems?

The number of beakers cumulated is stored in a savefile/memory. My program shows it, I can add a field where a user would input the total number needed, then the program could count the number of the remaining beakers.

I didnt insert the field that inputs the total number needed since I didn't know I can use the method with 0% science also under monarchy: I wasn't able to realize I can go below 30% with science

JCP,
I can post you the source code, if you have Delphi...

	10-08-2002 09:33									#36
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What about the science penalty/bonus?

We all have experienced changes in research cost.How will this be accounted for by a utility?

	10-08-2002 12:07									#37
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Smash, I can find out the number of tech programmatically, but I dont know the exact algorithm how to count the science penalty/bonus and then the total number of beakers needed. Therefore all that I can do is to add a field where you can add the total beakers needed manually.

	10-08-2002 15:13									#38
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oh well,wishful thinking.If you could do that,you'd really have something.

	10-08-2002 16:10									#39
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What would I have? Is it some english idiom that I don't know?

	10-08-2002 21:01									#40
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Re: If you could do that, you'd really have something.

The key is the word 'that'. The implication is that 'that' is virtually unobtainable. Thus, if you had (something imposible), you'd really have something.

HTH

	10-08-2002 23:10									#41
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ST, I reiterate my question: what should I do in order to make the program work? Double-click on it? Under what conditions? Apparently I need a manual....

	11-08-2002 01:45									#42
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Bloody, thx

debeest, you don't get the form when you open the Civ2beakers.exe? If yes then click the Load button.

	11-08-2002 03:48									#43
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I just know that over the years I could have saved myself oodles of turns if I had known exactly when a research penalty was to be imposed.This remains one of the most annoying things for micro managing tax.science and luxury rates.

	11-08-2002 11:50									#44
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debeest, I have tried to find the total beakers but failed. The number only showed up when cheat menu was activated to change research progress. Guess it was a calculated field which value could not be found directly.

	13-08-2002 10:57									#45
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ST, no, I don't get anything when I try to open Civ2beakers.exe. It appears on my taskbar, but nothing on screen. If I click on its taskbar icon, then visually the icon seems to fly to the upper left corner of my screen, but nothing appears on screen, and the icon still appears on the taskbar; if I click the taskbar icon again, it seems to fly back down to it, but nothing changes. ??? Is there any other way to open it than by double-clicking on it?

Xin Yu, I must say I'm surprised that you haven't found a field that contains either the number of beakers accumulated or the number still needed. I'm not a programmer, but wouldn't it usually be easier to store a number than to recalculate it every time?

	13-08-2002 21:05									#46
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debeest, the net shield production for each city is not there as well -- only the total shield (i.e., without considering support) is stored, then when the game processes a city the net number is calculated.

For the total beaker problem I think we have a pretty good idea how the formula looks like. It should depend on 1) the number of techs you have (excluding starting ones); b) your power rank and the difference between your tech number and the key civ's tech number; 3) map size; 4) a coefficient defined in rules.txt. Once we can figure out that we can calculate the number by ourselves.

	14-08-2002 01:21									#47
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debeest, I think I understand. i use 2 monitors, and by default the program loads to my monitor that is on the left side. But my left monitor has the negative horizontal coordinates.
You had to move the program to the visible part of the desktop (using alt-space etc. for example).

Try the file I attached now ( I am sorry, it is not fully finished, but the program is usable and I hope your problem is solved in this "version"...).

Attachment: civ2beakers.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

Last edited by SlowThinker on 15-08-2002 at 01:01

	14-08-2002 02:47									#48
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Xin Yu, I must say I'm surprised that you haven't found a field that contains either the number of beakers accumulated or the number still needed. I'm not a programmer, but wouldn't it usually be easier to store a number than to recalculate it every time?

Civ2 programers wrote a function that returns the number of beakers needed. In the source code this function is used at the same places as the direct value stored in the memory would be.
You are right that the value is recalculated many times, but programmers needn't to do the recalculation in detail, they only call the function (they write its name into the source code).

The way you mentioned would be more laborious: stored value would have to be recalculated after any event that might change it: key civ obtained a tech, power rank is changed, key civ is changed...

	14-08-2002 02:52									#49
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Have any of you programming hex-edit guys tried to get the game to display something other than the beaker graphic on the science advisor screen? Since the game knows how many beakers are in the picture you would think it could show the raw number in lieu of the graphic.

of course like all things that sound simple, that one has got to be impossible...

	14-08-2002 13:54									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Starlifter If you simply want the number of beakers necessary for the next advance, it's easy (you can even determine the range of ambiguity). 1. Note the number of turns per advance (e.g., Trade Advisor). 2. Use Trade Advisor to determine the number of beakers your empire is generating. 3. Multiply these two numbers. At that moment, this will meet or exceed the beakers for the next advance.

this would be when you don't have 0 or a negative number I guess .

If we want to discover the exact beaker-algorithm we will probably need someone crazy enough to gather a massive amount of data from 1 single entire game(with 7 civs until at least future tech 50):
1) usual game-info : mapsize/difficultylevel/...
2) check every turn the total amount of beakers needed: if changed write down-->
#tech researching
#beakers needed
#powerposition
#tech all AI have
#turn
#???

any volunteers? I promiss to help ripping the data to shreds

Shade

	14-08-2002 20:27									#51
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Um ... if you're generating 0 science, then the listed number of turns per tech IS the total beakers needed. And how can you generate a negative number of science?

And ... hasn't the exact beaker algorithm already been generated, at least for deity mid-size maps? By Samson, I think (how quickly we forget), standing on the shoulders of giants.

	14-08-2002 22:35									#52
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Um ... if you're generating 0 science, then the listed number of turns per tech IS the total beakers needed. And how can you generate a negative number of science?

but you can get a negative number of turns/tech ...

I thought this furmula is now been taken under fire??

Shade

	15-08-2002 00:16									#53
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How can you get negative turns/tech?

And where has there been any doubt cast on the formula?

	15-08-2002 00:22									#54
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ST, your new version works for me. Thanks!

	15-08-2002 03:22									#55
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quote: Originally posted by debeest How can you get negative turns/tech?

having a decadent amount of beakers ...
(btw when going in future techs you get to a point where you will need more the 16k beakers/tech)

Shade

	15-08-2002 04:09									#56
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quote: Originally posted by debeest And ... hasn't the exact beaker algorithm already been generated, at least for deity mid-size maps? By Samson, I think (how quickly we forget), standing on the shoulders of giants.

debeest,
I remember samson's two threads - The Cost of Research Explained and The Key to Tech Gifting. But I think it was an example only - for deity, small map and 7 civs.

	15-08-2002 09:20									#57
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Deity, mid-size map, 7 civs. And someone generated some numbers for small and large maps, I think.

I guess my point is, now we know how the formula works. For those playing other settings, it should be easy to find the numbers to plug into it.

	15-08-2002 16:44									#58
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debeest,
There are not only three map sizes possible in Civ2.
Also I dont know how it works with 6 civs for example: the man who alerted me that supreme is not compared to the white but to himself a couple months ago, it was you, I think

So I think some testing would be needed (some points from shade's list would't need to be watched probably).

	16-08-2002 05:04									#59
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Shade!

Haven't seen any updates on your record attempt lately. Slugging away? On sabbatical?

	16-08-2002 11:08									#60
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker debeest, I remember samson's two threads - The Cost of Research Explained and The Key to Tech Gifting. But I think it was an example only - for deity, small map and 7 civs.

I also remember those 2 threads (they are in the GL) and I consider that samson has explained the cost of research and has given the key to tech gifting (just like oedo has discovered the xxxo pattern, even if he has not published tables for all levels).
samson was a very brilliant analyst of this game and I very much regret that he suddenly stopped posting about a year ago.

(BTW does anyone know what happened to him?)