14-07-2002 01:26									#1
	Calculating beakers needed for the next advance Inflate your Upload Space

Is there a way to accurately determine how many beakers are needed to complete the advance??? I can see how many total* and how many I produce this turn**, but I can't remember if there is a way to pinpoint how many there are already/how many are needed.

*you can find the total needed for the advance by sliding the Science to zero
**At the end of the Trade page there is a summary...income, cost, science

Sometimes knowing that 3 extra Einsteins, for instance, will get the advance this turn would be very useful.

	14-07-2002 02:35									#2
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Pencil and Paper if you are seriously anally retentive, but we use Cool Ruler which you can get from ... * short pause while we frantically search the net ... * Fabsoft at http://www.fabsoft.com/pages/Downlo...#Cooler%20Ruler enjoy...

The SGs just beginning to dent the first bottle

	14-07-2002 03:03									#3
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Thanks and here's to ye...

Do I recall correctly that cool ruler is just that, a ruler. And this method involves extrapolation...x # of beakers per tick. BTW, how do count those little buggers, especially after a few, shall I say, attitude adjusters.

	14-07-2002 04:14									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Thanks and here's to ye... Do I recall correctly that cool ruler is just that, a ruler. And this method involves extrapolation...x # of beakers per tick. BTW, how do count those little buggers, especially after a few, shall I say, attitude adjusters.

That sounds remarkably numerical analytic ... are you perhaps one of those strange people (like myself (SG[1]))?

Be aware that the new High Priestess in Space game has just been launched over in Civ2|General - please join us...

The SGs now well into the second...

	14-07-2002 04:46									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits That sounds remarkably numerical analytic ... are you perhaps one of those strange people (like myself (SG[1]))? Be aware that the new High Priestess in Space game has just been launched over in Civ2|General - please join us... The SGs now well into the second...

Numbers and manipulating, working with them have always been a facination, though my formal training did not go very deeply into that realm. My interests are ecclectic and, mostly, strange. Kind of a contradiction, I am a happy man who is also cynical; I enjoy questioning the default view of things. For instance, I think strange is by far a better way to be.

I would be pleased to join you, especially if you keep in mind that I am still learning.

	14-07-2002 04:52									#6
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Hope you enjoy a good game. I only have 2.42

Another, time.......

	14-07-2002 05:22									#7
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The reference to the " MGE upgrade" is http://hometown.aol.com/cedricgreene but you didn't hear this from us....

The SGs being improper

	29-07-2002 06:01									#8
	Re: Calculating beakers needed for the next advance Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Is there a way to accurately determine how many beakers are needed to complete the advance??? I can see how many total* and how many I produce this turn**, but I can't remember if there is a way to pinpoint how many there are already/how many are needed.

You can count beakers added every turn manually or...
...try the attachment. It reads the number of beakers from a savefile (Xin Yu would be able to read directly from the memory but I can't ).

It is not finished, but it works...

A note: In the game I use the
Ctrl-S S Enter
combination to save the game quickly to "s.sav" file. But the Civ2 program asks if you want to rewrite a file: it annoys. Therefore there is the "delete .sav file" option in my program.

Edit: The beakers counter is moved here: Civ2 Beakers Counter

	29-07-2002 06:08									#9
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Hey ST, how big a market do you think if I write a program which can read number of beakers accrued?

	29-07-2002 07:21									#10
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Do you mean to read from the memory?

Wait how many times my program will be downloaded...

	29-07-2002 07:31									#11
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Yep. I can modify the 'lazyciv' program and show turn number (OEDO year), number of beakers, and number of total beakers needed for the current tech. But the 'lazyciv' program did not have many downloads, so I suspect maybe not worth the effort.

	29-07-2002 08:52									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu Yep. I can modify the 'lazyciv' program and show turn number (OEDO year), number of beakers, and number of total beakers needed for the current tech. But the 'lazyciv' program did not have many downloads, so I suspect maybe not worth the effort.

I'd d/l it... I'm about as lazy as it gets! Is it on Apolyton (before I start hunting for it)?

	29-07-2002 14:08									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu Hey ST, how big a market do you think if I write a program which can read number of beakers accrued?

Hey Xin, you don't count me among your potential customers. The reason why is that IMO there is a big difference between trying to find out how the game works, so as to play better, and trying to play the game with help of a readymade program made by someone else.
I want to go on playing my games as La Fayette (with many mistakes and 'wrong clicks') and not as La Fayette combining programs written by Xin Yu and Slow Thinker (though XY and ST are good friends of mine ).

	29-07-2002 14:14									#14
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Now, I too am as lazy as they come and would certainly be interested...

SG[1]

p.s. I haven't dled ST variant (despite the fact that I routinely save every turn) because to be useful such a DSS has to be always available (some sort of HUD perhaps)

	29-07-2002 16:01									#15
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Xin, tell me when you will decide to do it. I will post you offsets.

La Fayette, you don't reload typos (moving in a bad direction for example)?

Scouse, what is DSS and HUD?

	29-07-2002 21:12									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu I can modify the 'lazyciv' program and show ... number of total beakers needed for the current tech.

This would be great. But how can you find it out? I can find out the "next tech number" only...

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu But the 'lazyciv' program did not have many downloads, so I suspect maybe not worth the effort.

I thought lazyciv is useful for PBEM only (production changed by the AI)...

	29-07-2002 22:56									#17
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ST, you are right. Lazyciv was for PBEM only.

It is very easy to find the memory address for beakers. Via the cheat menu, you can change the number repeatedly and use a memry-reading program to search for the number, so very soon you'll narrow down to a single memory address.

Now I'm thinking about a name for this new program. How about 'Peeping Civ'?

	30-07-2002 01:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu It is very easy to find the memory address for beakers. Via the cheat menu, you can change the number repeatedly and use a memry-reading program to search for the number, so very soon you'll narrow down to a single memory address.

Do you speak about the number of beakers or number of techs? In other words do you find the address for beakers cumulated or total needed beakers?

I thought the memory organization is equal to the .sav file organization, and the I am almost sure that the .sav file don't contain the number of beakers needed.

	30-07-2002 02:49									#19
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number of beakers of course. In cheat menu there is an option 'set research progress', and you can put a wierd number there, then you can search it from memory.

	30-07-2002 02:51									#20
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DSS = Decision Support System - sorry I'm a Computer Systems man

HUD = Head Up Display

SG[1]

	30-07-2002 03:15									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu number of beakers of course. In cheat menu there is an option 'set research progress', and you can put a wierd number there, then you can search it from memory.

So I repeat my question:

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu I can modify the 'lazyciv' program and show ... number of total beakers needed for the current tech.

This would be great. But how can you find it out? I can find out the "next tech number" only...

	30-07-2002 04:42									#22
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Scouse,
what is a Head Up Display?

quote: I haven't dled ST variant (despite the fact that I routinely save every turn) because to be useful such a DSS has to be always available (some sort of HUD perhaps)

1. I disagree . Number of beakers will tell you an exact number of turn to finish a tech.

2. I agree . I had a plan to write a tool that would do the micromanagement instead of me or serve as an peace-condition AI that would help me in playing.
Unfortunately the Civ2 rules are too complicated, moreover the existence of such a stupidities as the "Black hat bug" makes them even more complicated...

I discovered Civ Evolution, a Civ2 clone that prefers the strategy over the simulation and boosts people that wants to write the AI or some micromanagement tools or DSS for Civ-Evo.
(Link: http://c-evo.org/text.html )
I was fascinated by the idea, but after some time I found out that the realisation is far from perfect .
One day I will write my own game with simple rules and will try to make an AI or a DSS for it...

	30-07-2002 04:44									#23
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Xin,
A sidenote about Civ2 programs: I received your PM at CivFan about a month ago:

quote: Xin Yu wrote on Jun 17, 2002 10:22 PM: Re: an order ...Sorry I did not notice this message till now. It is not entirely impossible but very difficult....Xin

did you get my answer?

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker ...I tried to start the tool that would open .sav, .net etc. files (my post from 25-05-2002 23:46 in your thread). I succesfully hooked the keyboard, but I have problems with sending keystrokes to the Civ2.exe via the PostThreadMessage proc. I would appreciate if you could help...

	30-07-2002 05:10									#24
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ST,

Total number of beakers can be figured out from the range for the 'set research progress' window (0-xxxxx).

I have yet to get a program to insert keystrokes to civ. This was never needed in my programs so I did not bother. I think it is doable though. However when trying to insert multiple keystrokes to civ, make sure you wait 1000 beeps between keys to give civ enough time to respond.

	30-07-2002 06:01									#25
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker La Fayette, you don't reload typos (moving in a bad direction for example)?

Generally not (I consider it one more luck factor in the game), but when the consequence is important and I really didn't click where I was intending to...then I generally correct my mistake.

	30-07-2002 14:15									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu Total number of beakers can be figured out from the range for the 'set research progress' window (0-xxxxx).

But how can you find it out programmatically?

	30-07-2002 22:10									#27
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How to figure the (almost) exact # of beakers for the current advance.


If you simply want the number of beakers necessary for the next advance, it's easy (you can even determine the range of ambiguity).

1. Note the number of turns per advance (e.g., Trade Advisor).

2. Use Trade Advisor to determine the number of beakers your empire is generating.

3. Multiply these two numbers. At that moment, this will meet or exceed the beakers for the next advance.



More accuracy:

Reduce # of beakers generated & increase the numver of turns.... cut the science slider to 0%, and use only one Einstein in a no-science improvement/wonder city. Then just multiply 3*(# Turns). In Fundy, a single einstein will make 2 beakers.

The range of error is +0/-(beakers empire generates - 1)

Example:

Your empire generates 3 beakers. It takes 250 turns for an advance:

3*250=750 +0/-2, or 748 to 750.

Deliver freight accordingly, and adjust science slider & einsteins to cover any remainder.


Big note: Changes in your Key Civ & your Key Civ's accumulated advances can modify this, even during your current turn.... so this is a "point" calculation.



Of course, if you want the exact number, just use Cheat Mode... but the 1 einstein method will get you within +0/-2 beakers.

	31-07-2002 00:38									#28
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starlifter
If you keep NO Einstein at all and set science to zero, the number of turns required (as given by the game) is EXACTLY the number of beakers needed for next advance.

	04-08-2002 04:02									#29
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LOL, I never noticed that, Lafayette! Now that you mention it, it all makes sense, and I can even recall the numbers from some prior games.... I guess I have always done it that way because I just leave one lone scientist grinding away turn after turn in mid-game. I just figure the # of needed beakers, and send freght in to exceed it and I'm set for another advance. But the precise technique you have is even better!

You might want to post your technique to this post, where I was also espousing the less-precise 1-scientist technique.

Thanks!

	04-08-2002 11:56									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Starlifter You might want to post your technique to this post, where I was also espousing the less-precise 1-scientist technique. Thanks!

It is not MY technique. In fact I don't know who discovered that, but what you must know is that the great discoverer in the field of research is named SAMSON. He was the one who discovered the method for calculating (not measuring) the number of beakers needed for next advance. He was also the one who discovered the key to tech gifting (the so-called 'key civ').
You can find those results (and many others) in the Great Library (thread #2 on top of the strategy forum). The threads where those findings have been discussed can be found at letter 'B' for Beakers.
Read them. I am sure you will enjoy it.
(well, I'm sure you would enjoy reading the whole GL )