14-07-2002 10:33									#1
	cruise missiles/jet fighters Increase Your PM Length

Before they bring out PtW they need to fix up a llot of stuff with air units and cruise missiles. Otherwise the modern age will be useless.

1. Cruise missiles should be a type of air unit that has a large range (6-10 tiles) and can be stored on criuses and AEGIS cruises. Once the technology of ICBM's is discovered, the cruise missile should be able to be fired anywhere in the world, just like an ICBM. The attack of a cruise missile should not be based on bombardment but rather like a conventional attack so that units can be destroyed by them. Its more realistic that way.

2. Jet Fighters are completely useless currently. In CTP2 u caould bombard the crap out of your opponent then finish him with interceptors. The bombard ability of jet fighters should be abolished and instead a new option like "strike" should be introduced where the jet fighters can attack and kill the enemy units. Otherwise they are useless and think about it; in real life jet fighters are used for more that just protection from bombers.

3. Aircraft carriers should be able to carry at leat 5 units and when attacked, fighters or jet fighters should be able to help the carrier defend itself. Obviouslly the defensive values of the fighters will be considerably weaker than the attack. This would stop the scenario where battleship can easily kill aircraft carriers. In WW2 we saw the battleships become obscelete due to carriers so its a bit stupid how easily they can be killed in civ3

If they fix these 3 things up then civ3 might be worth playing up to and beyond the emergence of the modern age

	14-07-2002 10:40									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I agree with the aircraft carrier comments, and I'd like to see them carry 8 air units instead of just 4.

I also agree that the jet fighters are kinda weak, and something should be done there to make them more effective. It would be nice if air units could actually kill units, rather than just damage them.

With the cruise missiles, what you say makes sense, but I have never really used cruise missiles in Civ3. So I'm not sure how they work, but I wouldn't make them too powerful because I always hated how the AI would rape you with them in Civ2.

	14-07-2002 17:56									#3
	Jet Fighters Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I use Jet Fighters mainly for Recon. They do an excellent job of gathering intelligence, telling you what lies ahead and what is happening in the fog of war between turns (especially useful if there are 3 or more Civs at war), which is still useful during peacetime or to keep you from getting bored.

And there's air superiority. You could use SAM's, but I don't think they protect you from Bombers taking out your roads on luxurues and resources, which the AI does very well.

Plus you can use their bombardment to go for their resources luxuries, mainly as a last resort.

Air power won't win you wars, it is intended as a strategic advantage to assist your ground troops, Jet Fighters even more so.

	14-07-2002 18:14									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

I have a feeling that the problem with aircraft carriers might be gone with PtW. I'm only thinking this because we'll have those airfields, which might bring about some changes. Already if you have a stack of units that contain artillery, those guns will fire at any attackers, potentially weakening them. I can see this happening with aircraft: if your airfield with an infantry man and a jet fighter is attacked, perhaps the fighter will make a bombing run against the attacker, exactly like artillery does right now. Also, this might happen in the sea too, making aircraft carriers really useful simply to defend a fleet. You could stack a carrier, a couple jet fighters, and a battle ship. When something tries to attack, an airplane will scramble to deal a couple of points of damage before the battle starts. Perhaps these little pre-battle bombards should be limited to fighters only (regular, jet, and stealth).
Also, when you put fighters on air superiority while on an aircraft carrier, will they still intercept bombers attacking the carrier?

	14-07-2002 21:09									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yes, they will intercept bombers attacking the carrier. I actually use jet fighters a lot, because bombers shoot down fighters about 50% of the time when they go to intercept, but a jet fighter with full health will ALWAYS shoot down the bomber when it goes to intercept. When you're fighting a modern war, they're essential to protecting your front line and coastal cities.

As for cruise missiles, I think they work great. I would make dozens of them before Firaxis allowed lethal bombard weapons, and I would use them defensivly to kill naval units that got too close to my shore, because they do kill. I agree they should be fireable from destroyers, battleships, and AEGIS cruisers though, but unlimited range is a little unrealistic, they don't have a long range, only reason America can hit everyone with them is because we have a navy everywhere But if you don't like the range, do what I did, go into the editor and fix it. If you want ICBM cruise missile range, you can do that. Or extend it to 10 tiles. I made mine 6, same as tactical nukes. That's the beauty of civ3, if you don't like how firaxis made units, you can make them better to suit your tastes.

	14-07-2002 21:12									#6
	Re: Jet Fighters Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Bambul Air power won't win you wars, it is intended as a strategic advantage to assist your ground troops, Jet Fighters even more so.

I disagree. If you can park 2 carriers full of stealth bombers, or even regular bombers outside an enemy island, you can make the landing significantly easier. With the addition of lethal bombing, you can remove all defenders from a city, then send in the mech infantry to occupy. I tried this in a game, only using air units to attack, and occupy with other units. It was a little slow, but I was able to take over 20 Chinese cities without the loss of a single unit. Once you start taking things, you just rebase the bombers and have them hit the next city in range. Just gotta watch out for the cities deposing you with the bombers inside.

	14-07-2002 22:50									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I solved both problems in my MOD.

I made cruise miss. with ROF4 and range if 6 (like tact. nuke).
That way they are good at knocking out battleships or attacking cities (they always target units, never buildings or pop)


Fighters, Jets, and Stl. Fighters get lethal sea bombard.
Jets, and Stl. Fighters get lethal land bombard.

Fighters & Jets get ROF of 2.

Bombers or Arty don't have any king of lethal bombard.

That way I made a stratgeic choice:
1) Build raw power Bombers which can't knock out units.
2) Build weak "tactical bombers" (jets, fighters) which can take out units (good for finishing off 1hp units)
3) Build strong one use cruise missile which can quickly knock out units, but for a price of 60 shields.

	15-07-2002 06:22									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

player1 how did u do it? is it in the editor or something?
If u make changes do u have to start a new game for them to take effect or will they effect saved games?

	15-07-2002 06:36									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

is there an option for lethal bombard?

	15-07-2002 07:42									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Taso_84 is there an option for lethal bombard?

Open up civ3mod.bic in the editor, go to edit rules, go to units, and at the bottom of the list in the bottom left corner, there is an option for lethal bombard. Hold down ctrl and click on the lethal bombards, and repeat for any other unit you want to change. Same thing to edit missiles, theres a range etc somewhere on that page, just change to what you want.

	15-07-2002 10:16									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Oh, these modmakers are so smart, and Firaxian game designers so stupid... How did they get that job and not the modmakers?

	15-07-2002 12:02									#12
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by player1 I solved both problems in my MOD. I made cruise miss. with ROF4 and range if 6 (like tact. nuke). That way they are good at knocking out battleships or attacking cities (they always target units, never buildings or pop) Fighters, Jets, and Stl. Fighters get lethal sea bombard. Jets, and Stl. Fighters get lethal land bombard. Fighters & Jets get ROF of 2. Bombers or Arty don't have any king of lethal bombard. That way I made a stratgeic choice: 1) Build raw power Bombers which can't knock out units. 2) Build weak "tactical bombers" (jets, fighters) which can take out units (good for finishing off 1hp units) 3) Build strong one use cruise missile which can quickly knock out units, but for a price of 60 shields.

Those sound like great ideas. It gives every unit a strong use.

I hope Firaxis makes it alot like that in Play the World standard edition so that we don't have to make mods for the gameplay to make practical sense.

	18-07-2002 16:11									#13
	Re: cruise missiles/jet fighters Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Taso_84 Once the technology of ICBM's is discovered, the cruise missile should be able to be fired anywhere in the world, just like an ICBM.

I'm not sure about that - don't like the idea of being fired upon from an unknown target. Wouldn't be a problem with the AI (they're always behind) but in PTW MP that would be sinister!

quote: Originally posted by Taso_84 Jet Fighters are completely useless currently.

They're good for recon Oh well, with scenario support in this patch people can change that.

	11-08-2002 03:41									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

hi ,

one thing they really should do is to increase the limitations on certain fields , like the range for airunits , ....

a stealth bomber should fly a bit further , ....
and there should be a helicopter for ASW on the AEGIS

maybe they should put a "long" range cruise rocket in the game also

have a nice day

	11-08-2002 09:56									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I forget, can Nuke Subs carry cruise missles or not? Don't really use the CMs so can't remember.

If not, they should be able to. One might even say that any sub should be able to.

One way of improving the carrier defensively would be to adjust it so that it has a variable defense value. Have a base rate the carrier always gets, and then for every fighter it has on board it gets an increase. Jet fighters could add more to the value than the older piston engine fighters. Not sure if bombers should add to the carriers value though.

Another adjustment I'd like to see on fighters is maybe changing the stealth fighters precision strike capability to be a precision targetting option instead. Essentially, the stealth fighter would be using its laser targetting gear to illuminate the target for follow-on waves of fighters and bombers, increasing the strength of their attacks by insuring they all strike the same spot. Game-wise using this ability on a stealth figher would increase the bombardment power of other air units that follow it.

	12-08-2002 00:43									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Bleyn I forget, can Nuke Subs carry cruise missles or not? Don't really use the CMs so can't remember. If not, they should be able to. One might even say that any sub should be able to. One way of improving the carrier defensively would be to adjust it so that it has a variable defense value. Have a base rate the carrier always gets, and then for every fighter it has on board it gets an increase. Jet fighters could add more to the value than the older piston engine fighters. Not sure if bombers should add to the carriers value though. Another adjustment I'd like to see on fighters is maybe changing the stealth fighters precision strike capability to be a precision targetting option instead. Essentially, the stealth fighter would be using its laser targetting gear to illuminate the target for follow-on waves of fighters and bombers, increasing the strength of their attacks by insuring they all strike the same spot. Game-wise using this ability on a stealth figher would increase the bombardment power of other air units that follow it.

hi ,

they can if you flag them in the editor
and give the sub more room to carry them

have a nice day

	17-08-2002 17:24									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

Bleyn ,Yes the Ohio Class Sub Carries several type of non-nucular missles HaRMs, and Type 48 AdCap torps. so in the game i think they sould carry Cruise Missiles.( and Yes I got my Sea legs along time ago)

Cruiser were the go Between for Battleships(cut back Due to Cost and oil intake)and Destroyers Due to not enough fire power (yeah right They kept us in WWII ) The Aegis System was designed as an early warning System for the Battle group That exceeded the Navys wildest dreams and was soon slaved to The Weapon Systems Aboard Naval Ships which is the Aegis System we all know today( just a little History Lesson:hmmm

I also thing the Ageis system sould be able to Detect planes and Subs From Farther ranges , Cause the Aegis System Was designed for that By TRW, in the game the Spy Mass Radar System isn't really that good

Thay sould also put more fighters on the Carriers , like someone said earler, and that Jet Fighters should be able to kill the Ground Targets ,I agree with that also.

I think this might be a little far fetched but it would be nice to be able to produce mines for coastal cities so a new ship class the MINE LAYER .

Also a hover craft to carry 5-6 Marines ( or Inf,Para,ect)of troops over land and water.
Also the need to make cargo ships to load the Amph.transports on (say 5 per ship that would mean what 45 Marines per Cargo ship ) that would be a good beach assault

Well the possibilities are endless .. gotta hit the sack guys long night.


Thx Everyone For the great Forum Sea USMC

Last edited by Sea41571 on 18-08-2002 at 13:12

	17-08-2002 20:18									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

hi ,

the max range of the cruise missile is a bit short

have a nice day

	18-08-2002 19:18									#19
	Tired of ads?

They should make a different , second type of cruise missile , one that can be stored aboard submarines and AEGIS cruisers .

It would also be intresting to edit this unit to go with certain airunits , for example the B-52 or stealth .

The range is to low , there are some mods that have given the stealth bomber the range of the ICBM , but that aint to great neither .

Indeed a range of 100 - 120 would be perfect .