23-07-2002 20:39									#181
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Heresson, do you mean there is no difference between Lithuania and Poland?

Also, Lithuanians are nation of Lithuania so I don't see the reason Polish should be second language (I know now you'll appeal to history but it has nothing to do with present times in fact - in betweenwars Lithuaniapeople already talked Lithuanian, not Polish.

	23-07-2002 21:32									#182
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OK. Western Lithuanians wanted to create a state based on Lithuanian language - nothing to it. But why did they want to include Polish Eastern Lithuania in it when it wasn't Lithuanian ethnically?

	23-07-2002 21:43									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson I have nothing against decline and Arabic conquests in the west...

As that would prevent the decline and western conquests of the east?

	23-07-2002 22:42									#184
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Mostly because of that, but that I am a student of arabistics play some role here too...

	24-07-2002 02:59									#185
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--"OK. Western Lithuanians wanted to create a state based on Lithuanian language - nothing to it. But why did they want to include Polish Eastern Lithuania in it when it wasn't Lithuanian ethnically?"

Get some help.

	24-07-2002 03:30									#186
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You should if You can't defend your opinion.

	24-07-2002 09:58									#187
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It's not an opinion, it's a rejection of your unbased tripe and I don't need to defend against that.

	24-07-2002 11:22									#188
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Well I say Heresson, Sonic, Saras: I was born in Gdansk (that's Danzig for you Germans), Poland. I'm partially German myself as well as Greek. I just felt I had to say that. Now I feel better.

I did research on the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in my senior years at university and the Commonwealth did not have much of a significant impact on the world stage, at least not directly.

Heresson and his two Lithuanian buddies have seem to outlined the history of the region already (albeit, with mistakes) so I'll spare myself the trouble of going into details.

The Commonwealth did however have a few unique attributes. The Liberum Veto was of-course one of the most significant factors in bringing down the Commonwealth. I don't believe anything like the Liberum Veto was in existence in any other part of the world.

I feel compelled to say that the Commonwealth did have potential and (call me a romantic if you like) but I have a deep sympathy for the Lithuanians as well as the Crimean Kossacks and I will always think that these people all had a common destiny with the Poles, but somewhere a wrong turn was made. It could have been something great and long-lasting but it fell apart due mainly to the anarchy and un-cooperative environment within.

It is perhaps the most interesting period in the history of the region. It was a unique chance at creating a multinational state in that part of the world. The Khanate of the Crimean Tatars always comes to mind. Such a romantic term.

Oh well, overall the Roman Empire scores high on my list as far as legacy is concerned.

I will always find it difficult to choose a winner since there is quite a time difference. How can one compare the Roman Continental Empire to the British Colonial Empire? Enormous difference in time, hence, in technology, politics, thought, economy etc.

------------------
~Dominik - Lord of the Putumayo~

	24-07-2002 13:18									#189
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Saras, I understand Lithuanian rights and demands for Vilnius I just can't agree that Lithuania was the only one to have any rights to it as Sonic seems to claim.

Crymea generallly was agressive bandit state in my opinion.

	24-07-2002 15:02									#190
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Vilnius was for very long time Lithuanian GD capital, cultural and military center and it was built by Lithuanians. It also had history under rule of Poland-Lithuania but even at a time Vilnius was at Lithuanian side of Zecpospolita. Yes it had some time under Polish rule but it was quite small time if compared with the time Lithuanians controlled Vilnius. And you say Polish had equal rights to Vilnius as Lithuanians...

	24-07-2002 17:25									#191
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Lithuania had bigger historical right for Vilnius
(it is questionable but I can agree with that,
but ethnical right was on the side of Poland.

	24-07-2002 21:15									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Lithuania had bigger historical right for Vilnius (it is questionable but I can agree with that, but ethnical right was on the side of Poland.

Bull. Vilnius is the CENTER of Lithuanian culture. Always was, always will be. Just because you guys used brute force after WW1 and took it and colonised it does not give you any grounds for this statement of yours.

	24-07-2002 21:46									#193
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We didn't have to colonise it, it was Polish with addition of Polish Jews and Byelorussians...
Even if it was some centre of Lithuanian cultural life,
it was a center of Polish culture the most.
We have taken it by force after Lithuanians did that,
created a separate state of it a parliament of which
united with Poland later. Definite majority of population supportat that.

	24-07-2002 23:04									#194
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--"We have taken it by force after Lithuanians did that,
created a separate state of it a parliament of which
united with Poland later. Definite majority of population supportat that."

Just like to commies in 1940

	24-07-2002 23:29									#195
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Got to appreciate the Mongols. Genghis was direct and to the point. Ride in and butcher the men, rape the women, plunder and burn. Ride out.

We could use some men like that in the Senate now.

When I think of the money we spend on missles to bomb desert caves I appreciate the cost effectiveness of Mongol technology. They sure got a lot of mileage out of some ponies and the stirrup.

	24-07-2002 23:48									#196
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Ghengis Khan was cool, but his empires didn't last long. His hordes butchered some locals, but got assimilated in the end by the same locals.

Our goal is to assimilate the locals, to make them follow our cultural values, and to jam democracy down their throats.

You won't get too far in this aspect through raping women.

	24-07-2002 23:58									#197
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Hmm, he must not have butchered them properly.

	25-07-2002 01:10									#198
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"ust like to commies in 1940 "

Just tell me. What gives You the reason to believe that Poles, Jews and Byelorussians of eastern Lithuania preferred to live under Lithuanian, not Polish tule...

	25-07-2002 01:55									#199
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Rome was the first and maybe the only intentional world "empire" (the Brits only wanted good trade terms and the occasional brown wench). They won on the military, political, economic and later the religious stage. We are still affected so profoundly that to this day the world is divided between Roman- and non-Roman- influenced spheres. 10 centuries later! Despite our glittering toys.

The Greeks gave us "thinking." The Romans gave us "doing." Empire is, in essence, the latter tempered by the former.

Rome in a rout.

	25-07-2002 04:22									#200
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This flag... are You Czech by a chance?

	25-07-2002 04:39									#201
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Kepler (who was Swabian, not Czech, btw), the Chinese just laughed about the Roman "empire" ... which they actually managed to recognize as something existing.

	25-07-2002 04:56									#202
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Yes, but the Chinese also lauged about the Europeans in the 1700s-onward, when the Euros kicked some Chinese ass .

	25-07-2002 05:47									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, but the Chinese also lauged about the Europeans in the 1700s-onward, when the Euros kicked some Chinese ass .

Before 17th century, Chinese had plenty of reasons to laugh at those puny Euros. But then they got too arrogant, too complacent, and buried their heads in sand until they fell hopelessly behind.

	25-07-2002 05:58									#204
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Europe's great strength actually lay in its fragmentation. With all those nations working against each other in a competitive but not destructive fashion, trade flourished and science progressed at a fast pace.

China, roughly double the land mass of Europe, was united under one bureaucracy, which had one single decision maker at its head for a long time. When that decision maker was good, then the country was in happy straits. When that decision maker turned out to be a poor ruler, then the country would suffer from his policies.

Fortunately today the Chinese political stage seems somewhat more detached (or should I say "aloof"?) than before. The most powerful force in Chinese society today is the burgeoning middle class and their purchasing power (for arguably the first time in recorded Chinese history...)

	25-07-2002 15:06									#205
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I don't agree with that "competitive but not destructive fashion". Europeans would kill themselves all out if they had a chance. And in fact, some nations got it....

	25-07-2002 19:32									#206
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Heresson, yes Lithuania had more historical rights to Vilnius and also more rights overal.

	25-07-2002 19:33									#207
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BTW, I also like Genghis khan. At a time he lived to create such empire in a span of lifetime was almost impossible.

	25-07-2002 19:38									#208
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I can't vote in this poll as there's no option available for the opressed majority of Poly!

	25-07-2002 19:44									#209
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Oh, my... had to choose the Chinese in lack of any other suitable alternatives. But I do think that they had a great deal of influence in our history.

BTW it there's a typo, it should be the Arabs, or if you're obsessed to that current one, then The Arab Caliphate.

Sonic,

I agree with you on those territorial claims. Heresson should consider changing his name to Harrasher.

	25-07-2002 21:37									#210
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Lithuania had NO ethnical rights to eastern Lithuania.
Generally Lithuania is of all our neighbours the one whose territorial anexions after IIww are for me most justified.
But today, ethnical right is what decides on territorial rights.
Kosowo is the motherfland for Serbia and no-one denies that. But it is inhabited by Albanians...
From Polish side it is highly sad that Lithuania didn't get more lands in the east after the war. In byelorus, Poles,
havbing such similar language to Russians and Byelorussians, were "swallowed". Inb Lithuania though they are now minority in Vilnius itself they are still majority in surrounding regions.