01-08-2002 20:56									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Even China in 1800 was quite different than China in 200 BC. Throughout the 2,000 years there were numerous technological developments. Improved agricultural techniques increased China's food supply leading to a larger population. Han settlers moved south. The education level continued to increase. In other words, the standard of living in China steadily increased.

Evidence?

quote: The average Chinese person lived a far better life than their European counterparts until about 1800.

Not always. Chinese dynasties went through cycles. You can read in historical references that people used to eat each other during bad times, things I rarely found in European sources.

quote: There is no doubt that the later Manchu rulers stiffled innovation. They also prevent China from developing at a faster pace once greater contact was made with Europeans. The fact that the Manchus were outsiders also explains the inability to fight off European invasions. If the Manchus armed the local Chinese then they risked creating an armed force that would overthrow them.

Manchus didn't even start the whole regressive policies, it was Zhu Yuanzhang who started worshipping Zhu Xi's perverted interpretation of Confucianism. If you need more info on that, please read Ray Huang's "1587 - A Year of No Significance". The book explained very well why tradition Chinese civilization was doomed by then.

quote: The Manchus were also tried to stop the creation of a merchant class because this would also threaten their power.

Rather, orthodox confucianism despised all professions except peasantry.

quote: Finally, the existance of a unified country allowed China to develop and maintain to a much higher level than Europe between 500 and 1500 AD while the constant infighting among Europeans destroyed much of their civilization during that time.

I partly agree. It's more like a stability vs competition problem.

	01-08-2002 22:53									#242
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Soviet Union isn't Russia
We are talking about continous empires...
And anyway Russia just had part of what Mongols had earlier... Asian states were always huge. Russia was (and is) backwards and definitely can't be compared to Roman Empire.

	02-08-2002 03:55									#243
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The decline of European civilization was due to 1) fall of the Western Roman empire and the collapse of its civilization; 2) external aggression in the form of Arabs, Maygars and Vikings that further deepened the decline of the nightmare world that had become Europe, and 3) the rise of Feudalism, which prevented the re-development of trade once the Franks had fairly re-established the Western Empire. China never had it this bad in its entire history.