15-07-2002 19:49									#1
	Test of Time vs. Fantastic Worlds Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi.

I haven't been on this forum for a long time, mainly because I rarely play Civ anymore (shame, shame, yes I know). Anyway, I was considering getting Test of Time and perhaps make another try at the Wheel of Time scenario I started on years ago.

So what I would like to know is what are the differences between Fantastic Worlds and ToT when it comes to scenario creation? Which would you recommend?


Btw, has anyone tried GifXtractor with ToT? Does it work, or have they altered the dlls too?

	15-07-2002 22:28									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

GifXtractor will work with ToT files. ToT uses the same DLL's as FW for leader portraits and what not.

ToT has several advantages over FW
1. an expanded event language
2. you can use up to 4 maps
3. 16 bit graphics
4. the event stack is larger, so you can code more events

ToT has these disadvantages
1. The unit shield was changed in such a way that it makes it very hard to tell who owns a unit.
2. The combat animation was disabled, so it is very hard to tell where combat is happening.

To me these last two features are deal breakers, so I don't play ToT, it's too hard on my eyes.

Also in ToT, and I don't classify this a plus or minus, there are no in-game editors.

Probably Techumseh will post here with some reasons why you should use ToT, so stay tuned.

	15-07-2002 23:38									#3
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Getting ToT is a must! I must admit, I haven't quite gotten into it yet, I haven't really tried those extra games it offers, and the graphics are somewhat dark (and I'm too lazy to change them), but considering the amount of money I paid for it, it's more than worth it.

I have to recommend another program for ToT DLL's (unfortunately ), namely url=http://www.users.on.net/johnson/resourcehacker/]Resource Hacker[/url]. That program is a "true" resource editor, so the filesize of the images is no longer an issue (i.e. GIFs can also be larger than the original). It only works for 32-bit files (i.e. MGE and ToT) though.

	15-07-2002 23:55									#4
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Thanks for the tip about Resource Hacker. Looks really promising (even though it might make GifX obsolete )

Have the units.gif, terrain.gif etc. also been changed to 16bit color? If so, does that make them more difficult to work with?

How does the four maps work? Can you have different terrain/city/unit graphics for each of the maps, or do they share the same graphic files?

Is there no indication at all where battle occurs? Sounds really strange to me...

	16-07-2002 01:04									#5
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Where can I rip ToT?

	16-07-2002 03:10									#6
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Each map has its own graphics. Units are allowed to go on certain maps as listed in rules.txt, and may or may not travel by thmeselves (rules.txr again). Cities are map-independent (civ-related). There definitely is a way to see where combat occurs. It is so natural to me that I can't think there is no animation. What are the spr files for? But then I didn't play other civ2 versions, and civ (1) had no anim at all so I don't miss that.

	16-07-2002 04:54									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare There definitely is a way to see where combat occurs. It is so natural to me that I can't think there is no animation. What are the spr files for? But then I didn't play other civ2 versions, and civ (1) had no anim at all so I don't miss that.

It was the function of the .spr files to play the attack animation of each of the individual units - hence the anims in civ2 weren't used anymore. As there wasn't a handy editor to create new .spr anims for new units, ToT was left with any new static units having no anims.
I'd thought the patch had taken care of this. ie: select the turn off animations option => re-enabled the original attack anim in the icons.gif (even if it was buggy and the .spr's weren't always disabled) but I guess I was wrong ...

El Awrence: I don't think its abandonware yet so you might have trouble getting it "semi-legally". But there's this place called E-bay...

	16-07-2002 06:40									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The ToT graphics format is 16 bit or 24 bit bmp. Gif is out because it has to be 8 bits although the title.gif is still supported (don't think title.bmp would work).

The spr files are the animations for the game included units. If you make custom units, you have to disable the animations. One way is by the game option, the other way is to get rid off the spr files by deleting them, renaming them, moving them another directory. The game will run without them. It uses the images in units.bmp in that case.

	16-07-2002 07:57									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I can't afford to purchase anything in dollars or over the net as international credit cards here have been... suspended indefinetly.

	16-07-2002 10:49									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hi Rune, thanks for the program. It does indeed work with ToT. I used it to change a number of gifs in several of the dll.'s in the ToT scenario "Red October," available from my site, here:
http://www.tecumseh.150m.com/

quote: Originally posted by Gothmog ToT has several advantages over FW 1. an expanded event language 2. you can use up to 4 maps 3. 16 bit graphics 4. the event stack is larger, so you can code more events

All true, though this hardly does justice to the increased range and number of events now possible with ToT. ToT events are really in another league altogether. The possibilities have only begun to be explored.

Other specific features include an impassible terrain flag and override flag, invisible units, unbribable units and undisbandable units. Units and techs can be made civilization specific. Plus a few other odds and ends.

quote: ToT has these disadvantages 1. The unit shield was changed in such a way that it makes it very hard to tell who owns a unit. 2. The combat animation was disabled, so it is very hard to tell where combat is happening.

I agree. Given that units are also 50% taller, it creates a cluttered looking map at times. Hardly a deal breaker as far as I'm concerned.

quote: Also in ToT, and I don't classify this a plus or minus, there are no in-game editors.

Me neither. It's a little more fiddley, but not a big problem. IMHO, what kept ToT from having more staying power (other than being released in the looming shadow of Civ3) was the failure to include an animated sprite editor. Since you can't edit the sprites, which are of poor quality anyway, all scenarios and mods must replace them with static graphics, ala FW/MGE. You just have to look at the fan creation work being done on Civ3 animated units here on Poly and over at CivFanatics to realize what a mistake this was.

So Rune, if you're looking for another project, decoding the SPR. file and developing a workable sprite editor for ToT would make you a legitimate hero in my books!

quote: Probably Techumseh will post here with some reasons why you should use ToT, so stay tuned.

What are the chances?

	16-07-2002 11:12									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Carl, check your private messages.

	16-07-2002 13:56									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by techumseh Hi Rune, thanks for the program. It does indeed work with ToT. I used it to change a number of gifs in several of the dll.'s in the ToT scenario "Red October," available from my site, here: http://www.tecumseh.150m.com/

Nice to hear my little program is still being used. Does that mean that the ToT dlls still use 8 bit gifs for graphics? IIRC GifX doesn't support bmp, but I might be wrong.

quote: Other specific features include an impassible terrain flag and override flag, invisible units, unbribable units and undisbandable units. Units and techs can be made civilization specific. Plus a few other odds and ends.

Sounds great. Ebay, here I come...

quote: So Rune, if you're looking for another project, decoding the SPR. file and developing a workable sprite editor for ToT would make you a legitimate hero in my books!

Has there been done any research on this so far? It would be a great feature for GifX... Don't get too high hopes though. I have no experience whatsoever with animation files (though I didn't know anything about gifs when I started GifX either...). However, if someone sends me an SPR file at rune@krokodille.com I will at least take a look and see what I can find out.

	16-07-2002 14:06									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Rune Has there been done any research on this so far? It would be a great feature for GifX... Don't get too high hopes though. I have no experience whatsoever with animation files (though I didn't know anything about gifs when I started GifX either...). However, if someone sends me an SPR file at rune@krokodille.com I will at least take a look and see what I can find out.

A poster who went by the username of DracoOmega (IIRC) began some such enterprize a while ago. No idea how far he got with it though. There was a thread about it in the ToT forum.

	16-07-2002 14:12									#14
	Tired of ads?

I just discovered that there exists an official spr tool for CTP. Has anybody tried it with ToT?

	17-07-2002 00:10									#15
	Put an end to popups!

I just had a look at that, but I don't think it's any good for ToT. "Sprite" is a pretty general term, used for just about every pixel-based graphics resource, but they can all be in very different formats.

Oh yes, and the images in the DLLs are still GIFs. It's just the regular graphics that have changed from 256 color GIFs/BMPs to 16/24-bit BMPs.

	17-07-2002 06:54									#16
	Remove this text

BOO! HISS! SPEW!

DOWN WITH TOT! LONG LIVE FW!

Ok, I ranted.

*wanders back into the shadows*

	17-07-2002 08:00									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by WarVoid BOO! HISS! SPEW! DOWN WITH TOT! LONG LIVE FW! Ok, I ranted. *wanders back into the shadows*

YOU ARE AFRAID OF CHANGE! CHANGE IS HERE AND CHANGE IS GOOD! DEAL WITH IT!

*slinks into cave with the rest of the seemingly eternal Chieftains*

	17-07-2002 10:56									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Vive la revolution!

Wait a second... I am the Emperor!

Into the dungeons with the lot of them.

	17-07-2002 15:11									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Oobir *slinks into cave with the rest of the seemingly eternal Chieftains*

Why don't you do what every other wannabe prince does: spam the Apolyton/Community board

	18-07-2002 02:33									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Case Why don't you do what every other wannabe prince does: spam the Apolyton/Community board

Anyway, on the topic: A .spr editor would be a most wonderful utility.

	18-07-2002 03:12									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Somebody was working on that some time ago, and I haven't heard anything since.

	18-07-2002 03:20									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yes. Someone called DracoOmega claimed he was almost done with such a program. Does anybody know more about this?

	19-07-2002 00:38									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think ToT allows to specify barbarian units don't vanish after some time. Is that correct? Could it be used to specify barb-unit death events in addition to civ-unit death events?

	19-07-2002 00:49									#24
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Yes and yes.

	22-07-2002 23:05									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

How about the number of civilizations? Is seven still the maximum in ToT, or can you have more?

	23-07-2002 04:12									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

Seven. For all the extra stuff, it's still Civ2.

	23-07-2002 04:23									#27
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Ah well. Guess it was too much to hope for (I've become a bit spoiled after playing EU2). With four huge parallell maps it would be great to have some more civs...

	23-07-2002 13:31									#28
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Well, to some extent you can fiddle around with this... You can make a civilization that isn't able to transport anything between maps, but let them have cities on multiple maps.
Give them different units for each of their different maps and you'd have fairly independant civilizations (only the name and actual diplomatic relations can't be split up).