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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by SnowFire
Compare this to say, Javert, who was held up as an example as a sympathetic villian. Javert falls into the category I like to call "Lawful Stupid" villians: people who follow some kind of idiotic code super-rigorously even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary (until the end, when they realize the error of their ways). Unfortunately, they're fairly popular. I far prefer SMART villians who come to their conclusions on their own.
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I think Javert is one of the greatest literary characters of them all, certainly the archetype of the obsessed lawman. His somewhat mindless devotion to the law isn't from stupidity (indeed, he shows several times in the book that he's not stupid), it's because of a desperate attempt to flee his ignominious birth. He hates his origins so much that he goes to the opposite extremes to prove he isn't scum of the earth. He's a really tragic figure, especially if you read his final chapter. It's a powerful portrait of a man coming undone by his own beliefs.
No, he's not really a villain, as his intent isn't to be malicious (it's to be perfect, actually). But his actions cause the hero and others so much trouble that I can't help but include him among legendary antagonists.
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Kassiopeia
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Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:20
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I've never seen Excel Saga, but I really do want to, just to see that guy in action.
Long silver hair, long black cape - I guess I know now where Square got it's inspiration when creating Sephiroth (FFVII). 
Then there's the business of Kefka (FFVI, or FFIII in US).
I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate [...] hate hate hate you!
There's SAND on my boots!
Nothing can beat the music of hundreds of voices screaming in unison!
Run run or you'll be well done!
I will hunt them down. I will destroy them all! Destroy! Destroy! Destroy!
Now, for my next trick, I will make you all...disappear!
Oh dear...you wanna fight me?! This is just dreadful!
Now I feel you've outlived your usefulness...
Hee, hee, hee !! But what fun is destruction if no 'precious' lives are lost!
I will destroy everything! I will create a monument to non-existence!
This is sickening! You sound like chapters from a self-help booklet! Prepare yourselves!
Other Square baddies... well, Goblez was evil enough... Ultimecia (or should that be Ultimekia  ) was a joke (and female, tut tut)... Kuja looked like a girl. What I've heard Seymour's a copy of Sephiroth, but I don't know much more.
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ixnay
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ACS Staff: 'RoN' Content Editor
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I <3 etna, omg disgaea fag
Jan 1970
time: 22:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wraith
Finally, someone else who's seen Excel Saga  Although with that location field, I may have to ask you to sing the afro song... |
I'm Nabeshin and my afro suits me,
It's easy to clean, just wash it once.
The babes all like it 'cause it's fluffy,
and I like it 'cause I don't have to brush.
Shaggy and curly, frizzy and messy,
My afro-do is the best for me.
I'm Nabeshin and the chicks dig me,
It's a wop-do-wop-do-wop-do-wop hair do,diddy diddy diddy DAY!
Got to love Nabeshin...
 Attachment: nabeshin.gif
This has been downloaded 76 time(s).
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SnowFire
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New York City, NY
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
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Bah. I happen to agree that of "entity" villians (big unthinking brutes/gods/something that only care about kill, kill, kill), Lavos is one of the best, but he still can't compete against a villian with real character, something more than a very cool screech.
And whoever told you Seymour was a Sephiroth clone hasn't played the game very closely. There are several MAJOR differences between Seymour and Sephiroth- he's no more the same as Sephy as Sephy is the same as Golbez. I mean, just for starters... nah, don't want to spoil the plot of FFX.
BG: Well, then it just goes to show how much characterization can do for you. My complaint with Javert, the musical Javert at least, was that I could tell we were supposed to find him this "noble villian" (as I can tell you do) but they didn't do anything, as far as I'm concerned, to back this up. He was just there to always be muttering about how he knew that Valjean was really evil (yah, sure, good job investigating Mr. Investigator!) and swearing off by the law to the letter.
Still, he's not the worst example of a character like that. Here's a better one that I know some people here will be familar with: anybody who has seen Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within knows what an amazingly poor villian General Hein was, whose stupidity truly knows no bounds and valiantly clings to his idea of what to do in the face of all evidence to the contrary and the massive amounts of destruction he causes. The really annoying thing was that the gave him a chance at redemption, too (Spoilerific, don't read if you want to watch the movie)- after he lets the bad aliens into the base (he sabotages the base's own defensive system) in the hopes that the outrage provoked by this attack will trigger the High Council (or whatever the governing body was) to his course of action, needless to say the aliens eat virtually the entire base and only he and our heroes escape (this was a big city too, so we're talking SERIOUS losses, especially when humanity only has so many of these walled in cities). Oops. So he puts a gun to his head.
Okay, fine, he recognizes what an amazing ******* he was and the number of people he basically murdered by playing games with the shield wall. I actually don't mind villians like this, since that shows that they/the movie realize what idiots they were. But nope, he doesn't shoot himself. That doesn't mean things have gone downhill yet. He recognizes he screwed up, but knows that killing himself may ease his guilt, but it won't help anything, and he's going to live to try and help things out and reverse the mistakes he's made. But no! He pulls the gun away... and continues along with the same idiotic plan he's been pushing the whole movie, which has been conclusively shown not to be wise, and he also continues trying to kill the heroes! I mean, he didn't learn a thing!
Sympathetic villian, yeah, sure. Oh well, FF:TSW was at least a promising start, I suppose, but Square Pictures closed after its release, so we'll never see anything more polished, I guess. Bah. And we're left with a very mediocre movie as its only contribution, a shame.
Last edited by SnowFire on 17-07-2002 at 09:32
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by SnowFire
BG: Well, then it just goes to show how much characterization can do for you. My complaint with Javert, the musical Javert at least, was that I could tell we were supposed to find him this "noble villian" (as I can tell you do) but they didn't do anything, as far as I'm concerned, to back this up. He was just there to always be muttering about how he knew that Valjean was really evil (yah, sure, good job investigating Mr. Investigator!) and swearing off by the law to the letter.
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No one is going to pretend the musical presents and adequate representation of the breathtaking way in which Hugo realized any of his characters in the book. It's just impossible to condense a story of that length into a 3-hour show and have it maintain the same weight or depth. All of the characters are somewhat dumbed-down into 2-dimensionality.
My major gripe with Javert in the musical is that they turn him into a religious zealot, akin to a fundamentalist. This is completely opposite of the novel, wherein Javert does not think of anything being higher than the law of man. He pays due reverence to the church because of its status, but he does not think of God at all until his 11th hour epiphany.
The musical also fails to make him very frightening, which is a shame. In the book, his terrorizing effect is well-drawn. He is a hulking, menacing man who jumps from shadows at his prey. He is a rather frightening depiction of a person swayed to do wrong by a system wherein those wrongs are the rules. He is the very personification of a merciless justice system.
What gets me about the book is that you can see a subtle shift in Javert's temperament over the years. He starts off the book as a zealous, angry enforcer of the law. When we see him in Montrieul-sur-Mer, he is the legal tiger who jumps from shadows. But when we fast forward 10 years to Paris, he has mellowed considerably, shows a good deal of cleverness and even a sense of dry humor (particularly in the arrest of the Thenardiers).
His capture at the barricades is another problematic part of the musical, as it shows him deliberately lying to the students to give them false ideas of the government's troops. This is again the opposite of Hugo's intent. In the novel, Javert is merely dressed as a commoner and observing the students, spying on them. When Gavroche points him out to Enjorlas, the students approach him and ask him who he is. He does not lie at all, and does not resist when they capture him. In fact, Hugo stresses how Javert adopts a self-righteous air of "one who has never lied." A little later, there is a great moment when Javert is tied to a table, and he looks up to see Valjean hovering over him. Now, he hasn't seen Valjean in years, and only suspects the man he rescued from Thenardier was him. All Javert does is lower his eyelids and mutter, "Of course..."
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Quixote's Ghost
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Aaron the Moor from Titus Andronicus.
Definatley.
Best Villian Speech ever.
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- Groucho -
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Another vote for Aaron the Moor. Best speech any villain ever spat out at his enemy:
LUCIUS: Art thou not sorry for these heinous deeds?
AARON: Ay, that I had not done a thousand more.
Even now I curse the day--and yet, I think,
Few come within the compass of my curse,--
Wherein I did not some notorious ill,
As kill a man, or else devise his death,
Ravish a maid, or plot the way to do it,
Accuse some innocent and forswear myself,
Set deadly enmity between two friends,
Make poor men's cattle break their necks;
Set fire on barns and hay-stacks in the night,
And bid the owners quench them with their tears.
Oft have I digg'd up dead men from their graves,
And set them upright at their dear friends' doors,
Even when their sorrows almost were forgot;
And on their skins, as on the bark of trees,
Have with my knife carved in Roman letters,
'Let not your sorrow die, though I am dead.'
Tut, I have done a thousand dreadful things
As willingly as one would kill a fly,
And nothing grieves me heartily indeed
But that I cannot do ten thousand more.
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Godraz
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Helsinki
Aug 2002
time: 07:20
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Hey nobony mentioned Harvey (Scorpius) from Farscape. He's like Darth Vader evil you know "ill destroy your planet if i dont get what i want" but still he and John have the funniest scenes in the series.
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17-07-2002 00:08
Attachment: 
pictures of Starscream and Galvatron?
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