16-07-2002 22:24									#61
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It is not a fundamentally wrong idea, and if you see something being wrongly done, that is fine, but still good check should be kept in place so that you dont have some rough justice appearing out there.

Coupling that with the rights of surveillance of whomever you want, and searches without people knowing that they have been searched.

I mean endless doors to abuse appear in the middle level of those who keep us "secure".

At high levels there cannot be real accountablilty anyhow (only if they step on their colleagues feet). But this opens doors to some middle level guys to stir up fuss where there is none for utterly wrong reasons like wrong political bias (leftists and such), racial reasons - arabs and muslims in general I can bet will be more affected by those measures than others, or maybe even personal reasons, etc.

Accountability is the main factor in this whole thing, but with large numbers of people involved this can hardly be as well controlled as it should. Well I wouldn't expect USA to be secetrly leaned towards encouraging such action, but there will be plenty of opportunity to lesser folks to try and "educate" someone they think is a threat.


See no evil/ hear no evil is no good, but how effective and efficient in finding terrorists this such huge surveillance operation with God knows whom in the 1 million chosen ones will be is anyones guess. The potential for causing more harm than good to normal citizens and for wasting existing intelligence agency staff time and resources is immense. Not to mention a potential for another McCarthyist era.

Did you have such free espionage laws against the citizens in the 50's?

	16-07-2002 22:25									#62
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Increased survelliance by law enforcement and informers is not a problem for me, being one of the few real live got nothing to hide persons (I am even scrupulously honest with taxes). But if they leak any info to spammers or marketers, I will be infuriated. In my current situation, increased police survelance has only a plus side in the way of increased security, from all sorts of crime, not just terrorism. Yhe more eyeblass in my neighborhood, the less burglars, robbers, rapists, vandals, etc. I do not care at all that they make note about how grungy i dress at home, or how I scratch whatever itches or that I say, in sweet voice, terrible curses to my wife GD dog or somtimes laugh out loud at my children's social problems or see my necking with my wife in the back yard or see any of my many non-conformist habits. I am better than any of them anyway . For all you guilty scum who are trying to hide you misdeeds, MUA HA HA! suffer!

	16-07-2002 22:27									#63
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Lefty: If I didn't know any better, I'd guess you were an exhibitionist.

	16-07-2002 22:28									#64
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i dunno, this just reminds me a bit of whitehouse.org's patriot registration form...

if this is serious, i really don't know how such a thing could work; i'm setting aside considerations of civil liberSAFETY FOR ALL CITIZENS IS A PARAMOUNT CONCERN OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. NATURALLY, SOME COMPROMISES MUST BE MADE, BUT THAT IS IN THE TRADITION OF AMERICA. NO PATRIOT WOULD QUESTION THAT IN TIMES OF GREAT PERIL, CITIZENS MUST DO WHAT IS GOOD AND RIGHT FOR THE COUNTRY.ties...

4% of americans means tens of millions of reports filed, which then have to be duplicated in triplicate, xeroxed, faxed, digitized, classified and censored, etc., etc., etc... who's going to do all that ? and if the program is successful, increasing the number of people involved?
where's all the paper going to go? yucca mounDO NOT QUESTION THE WISDOM OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE. TIPS IS TO ENSURE THE SAFETY AND FREEDOM FOR ALL RIGHT THINKING AMERICAN CITIZENStain?

i dunno, to me it just seems like another crackpot idea from the bush adminiPRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH IS THE BEST WARTIME LEADER AMERICA HAS EVER HAD. HE STANDS FOR MORALITY, RIGHT-THINKING, STRENGTH, AND GOOD LEADERSHIP. DO NOT QUESTION HIS AUTHORITY.stration.

ah, well. comes with living in times like "dangerous" these, mm? we wouldn't want those mean old nasty terrorists to win now, would we? maybe soon i'll get one of them patriot identification tatoos that whitehouse.org says is going to mandatory soon...

	16-07-2002 22:36									#66
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quote: Now there were 15517 murders in 2000 alone, what is being done about that?

Criminals only get caught usually when people tip the police or FBI.

But wait, because someone opened their eyes and saw a criminal, they violated that poor persons civil rights. They shouldn't have looked at them because thats an invasion of privacy!

Maybe police tip lines ought to be turned off too?

	16-07-2002 22:47									#67
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police tip lines are used to solve commited crimes, not to report suspicious people, you just call your local police station then.
To report a man who has done specifically this, and not someone who you think could go and do this or that

	16-07-2002 22:53									#68
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The idea is that normal people are always going to play a role in helping prevent crime and catch criminals. People say they don't want big brother watching them, but the truth is they don't want anyone watching them.

	16-07-2002 23:02									#69
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Well, at least we aern't as bad as Holland, i hear they fine you if you say certain things they don't like.

	16-07-2002 23:12									#70
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I'm just glad you all haven't figured out I'm spying on you .

	16-07-2002 23:16									#71
	Put an end to popups!

The constitution has not been suspended, civil liberties still apply and if they try to go too far the Supreme Court will stop them. This is little more then a Neighborhood Watch type program.

	16-07-2002 23:18									#72
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Of course Shi...though some people like to label every government plan as a sign of the apocalypse.

	16-07-2002 23:20									#73
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Hey, I'll spy on you if the price is right!

Show me the money.

	16-07-2002 23:22									#74
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Chris you take the Nursing Home, I'll take the playboy mansion

	16-07-2002 23:25									#75
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No thanks, no action there!

Better to spy on things that could get out of hand, like "Hooter's" for example, a hotbed of terrorism if ever there was one!

	16-07-2002 23:29									#76
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I will spy on Milla's house and other choice houses

JonMiller

	16-07-2002 23:30									#77
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quote: Well, at least we aern't as bad as Holland, i hear they fine you if you say certain things they don't like.

where did you get that idea?
i could imagine fining someone for insulting a police officer, but then you're asking for it, and that isn't any different than in the US, so on what do you base this "at least we aren't as bad as Holland"?

	16-07-2002 23:41									#78
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quote: Whos paranoid? You?

-No. I realize I have more to fear from Bush than from all arab terrorist groups combined.

quote: The idea is that normal people are always going to play a role in helping prevent crime and catch criminals. People say they don't want big brother watching them, but the truth is they don't want anyone watching them.

-Can you blame them? I bet if you pick any 4% of the US population, at least a thousand of those people find what I am doing highly suspicious at any given moment, even when I'm sleeping, just by pure chance.

quote: The constitution has not been suspended, civil liberties still apply and if they try to go too far the Supreme Court will stop them. This is little more then a Neighborhood Watch type program.

-Maybe now, but at the rate things are progressing, I would not be terribly surprised if there are some "irregularities" in Generalissimo Bush's electoral victory in 2004.

	16-07-2002 23:45									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -Maybe now, but at the rate things are progressing, I would not be terribly surprised if there are some "irregularities" in Generalissimo Bush's electoral victory in 2004.

No need for that, he will get 70% now after the crisis.

	16-07-2002 23:48									#80
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Highlighting the scope of the surveillance network, TIPS volunteers are being recruited primarily from among those whose work provides access to homes, businesses or transport systems. Letter carriers, utility employees, truck drivers and train conductors are among those named as targeted recruits.

This is NOT a neighborhood watch program

	16-07-2002 23:48									#81
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I'm not so sure. Approval rating isn't the same thing as how many votes he'd get.

	16-07-2002 23:53									#82
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quote: -No. I realize I have more to fear from Bush than from all arab terrorist groups combined.

Do tell, what about Bush scares you?

	16-07-2002 23:53									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Promethus Highlighting the scope of the surveillance network, TIPS volunteers are being recruited primarily from among those whose work provides access to homes, businesses or transport systems. Letter carriers, utility employees, truck drivers and train conductors are among those named as targeted recruits. This is NOT a neighborhood watch program

So? Is it even worse or?

You'll be watching if your letters are open, or you come home and find a postman inside . Oh I was just delivering letters, and I just checked inside to see if you had any outgoing mail.

	16-07-2002 23:53									#84
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yes

there are always those who approve of wat he is doing, but think someone else would do better

besides the party line voters

Jon Miller

	16-07-2002 23:54									#85
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We get the police log at work every night and let me tell you this: People are always calling in about a "suspicious" person or vehicle on their own accord, it seems.

No government program is needed ... folks will call in a "suspicious" person/people or vehicles or activities ... even if 98 percent of the time it turns out that the "suspicious" activity was someone exercising, changing their vehicle's oil or simply standing around admiring the scenery.

People are like this the world over. The impression I get is that it's just another level of government trying to organize the torrent of information that comes in from these "informers" in an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Gatekeeper

	16-07-2002 23:58									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy where did you get that idea? i could imagine fining someone for insulting a police officer, but then you're asking for it, and that isn't any different than in the US, so on what do you base this "at least we aren't as bad as Holland"?

I got it from dear St Markus, and the nice thread he posted about Dutch law.

Must be disheartening to realize you live in a police state like Holland that censors your free speach, eh?

	17-07-2002 00:00									#87
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quote: Do tell, what about Bush scares you?

-What doesn't? (He's a bloody reactionary)

	17-07-2002 00:03									#88
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actually, i'm more afraid of his foreign idiocy that nobody seems to remember these days.

what he did to korea and japan... hanging them out to dry like that. obscene.

that said:
bush isn't reactionary. he's just going for that retro thing; it's all the rage.

and it's true. he probably does want american citizens to be safe.

no, what worries me is not bush; he's a politician, he's playing into the wants and desires of a dumb populace.

the ones that worry me are the ones who confidently say "i'm willing to give up some of my rights to be safe."

	17-07-2002 00:03									#89
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quote: I got it from dear St Markus, and the nice thread he posted about Dutch law. Must be disheartening to realize you live in a police state like Holland that censors your free speach, eh?

must be one of those laws that are ignored by the police, like how prostitution and soft-drugs are theoretically illegal, but most policemen have enough commen sense to realize that enforcing those laws is a waste of time.
I've never heard of a law like this btw

	17-07-2002 00:06									#90
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http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2...6802691135.html

quote: By Gabrielle Costa July 17 2002 Police are to be given increased powers to search people for weapons and those who refuse face fines of up to $3000 under new laws detailed by Premier Steve Bracks yesterday. The planned legislative changes have been attacked by legal bodies, with Liberty Victoria and the Law Institute questioning whether they would give police excessive search powers and prompt some officers to conduct racially based searches. Under the proposed legislation, to be introduced in parliament in the spring session, officers who have a "reasonable suspicion" that a person is carrying a weapon, including knives, machetes, crossbows and swords, may conduct a search. The courts interpret "reasonable suspicion" - the principle applied in drug searches - to be a fair view formed by a person acting without prejudice or passion, and taking into account all circumstances. At the moment, the tougher legal test of "reasonable belief" applies for weapons searches, where the belief must be formed on the basis of all the circumstances. Mr Bracks said the changes, which with Liberal support appear set to pass parliament before the end of the year, would improve community safety. "It means police can do the very job they're required to do and make the streets safer with knives . . . taken off people," he said. Mr Bracks acknowledged that police could not force a person to submit to a search, but said the $3000 penalty would deter refusals. He said other options were available to police in those cases, such as restraining a person if a situation became threatening. Law Institute president David Faram said tougher search powers were unlikely to reduce the number of people carrying weapons in public. With a lesser test, he said, police could decide to conduct searches based on "stereotypical groupings, whether it is the Asian community or any other ethnic community in our society". He called for more extensive public debate on the issue and for stricter legal definitions of the types of searches and instances where they were legally permissible. Liberty Victoria vice-president Greg Connellan called for tighter legal definitions and raised the prospect of Asian people being targeted because of preconceptions about Asian youths carrying weapons. Mr Connellan also said the government should tackle the sale of weapons, which he said were readily available in Melbourne. The proposed legislation has the strong backing of senior police, the Police Association and the State Opposition. Chief Commissioner Christine Nixon said the additional search powers, together with 420 new metal detectors to be distributed to police stations, would help make Victoria's streets safer. Ms Nixon and Police Association secretary Paul Mullett said the changes would win community support. Opposition police spokesman Kim Wells said the Liberals supported the changes in principle and would consider the legislation in parliament.

Those damned facists Aussies.