17-07-2002 17:39									#151
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one of the problems is that the type of people who want to be spies, will be those least suitable to do it (ie small minded, paranoid wackos)

Pretty much like gun enthusiasts, if you find guns exciting and fascinating, then you really shouldn't be allowed to own one!

	17-07-2002 17:41									#152
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took a couple of breaths, read more

quote: The White House said costs to the private sector alone for security could double from the $55 billion a year spent before last year's hijacked plane attacks. The federal budget for homeland security has risen from $17 billion in 2001 to a proposed $38 billion for 2003, and is expected to rise further.

do you think security related companies in the US will want web developers?

	17-07-2002 18:06									#153
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever one of the problems is that the type of people who want to be spies, will be those least suitable to do it (ie small minded, paranoid wackos) Pretty much like gun enthusiasts, if you find guns exciting and fascinating, then you really shouldn't be allowed to own one!

well, if this will be voluntary, than pretty much anyone can participate, and the ones enrolling will most likely be of that kind.

And I wouldn't think it will be some major spying but one of a couple of guys will get to watch over a people in their street, and similar.

So if they have someone who they find "unusual" or suspicious, they can just alert the relevant body, and somone can go into that "suspicious" persons house, make a search, tap the phone and the person might come back home from work thinking everything is normal.

And that is the scary fact. What happens next, can someone set you up, abuse your privacy etc... and all that legally.

That would concern me.

	17-07-2002 18:35									#154
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quote: And I wouldn't think it will be some major spying but one of a couple of guys will get to watch over a people in their street, and similar. So if they have someone who they find "unusual" or suspicious, they can just alert the relevant body, and somone can go into that "suspicious" persons house, make a search, tap the phone and the person might come back home from work thinking everything is normal.

-I still say we call it the Stopping Terrorism with Amateur Spies Initiative, or STASI for short

	17-07-2002 19:19									#155
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it's a good system, man. STASI worked, and was well regarded in terms of security applications when it was around.

	17-07-2002 19:52									#156
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I'm sure that the people who are a-okay with the new spying initiative would readily condemn how prevalent CCTV cameras are becoming in the UK given the chance. Perhaps the human touch is what separates the two...

	17-07-2002 20:10									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie I'm sure that the people who are a-okay with the new spying initiative would readily condemn how prevalent CCTV cameras are becoming in the UK given the chance.

Does that statement work in the opposite direction as well? Would you say that the people oppossed to the TIPS program are supportive of the spread of the CCTV cameras? Because I'd like to know British feelings about that.

	17-07-2002 20:12									#158
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i dunno... gibsie, you're right americans for the most part love privacy, but they also love the camera...

hey! here's a thought... we install security cameras everywhere as a security precaution, but have them broadcast it on tv as a new reality show! "Uncle Sam Is Watching You" or something... people would love it! especially when the cameras get installed in restrooms and bedrooms across the country.

	17-07-2002 20:22									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Serb KGB, KGB, who cares about KGB? The KGB died with SU.

Don't try to tell me, that Russia has no secret service, whatever its name is, and that nobody from the old KGB serves in it.

Btw: Veshat' tebya na chlene byla, konechno, shutka. Nikto ne umeet takiye malen'kiye uzly.

	17-07-2002 22:02									#160
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quote: Originally posted by drake What serious rights have you lost because of the patriot act? Tell me how your day to day life has changed because of it.

What, I should wait until my day to day life has been impacted to make a fuss? By then it is far too late.

It's as if you're saying, look, don't do anything about that guy starting a camp fire in the dry forest. It hasn't done anything to you. The problem is, by the time the possible forest fire is burning my house I can't stop it.

Remember the words of the German priest,

"First they came for the communists,
and I said nothing, because I was not a communist . . . .

and when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out."

In and of itself, the TIPS program is not a problem. However, it creates a mechanism that can be seriously abused.

	17-07-2002 22:38									#161
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Does that statement work in the opposite direction as well? Would you say that the people oppossed to the TIPS program are supportive of the spread of the CCTV cameras? Because I'd like to know British feelings about that.

the general (overwhelming) feeling is that CCTV cameras in city centres has has made them accesable(sp) again at night, so cities that once had a reputataion violence now have a rep for being good nights out. but the difference may be that the CCTV do not deal in conjecture and rumour, just facts.

It's one thing being a WASP in America and saying the innocent have nothing to fear, that there will be proper systems in place, appeal processes etc, but try explaining that to a first or second generation arab who's been (wrongly) accused, in the current climate the US governments approach would be 'better safe than sorry'

	17-07-2002 22:42									#162
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red's got a very good point. as long as you're a caucasian, you generally don't have anything to fear, except being called a racist.

being part of pretty much every other minority, however, kinda makes one much more worrisome about civil rights.

because abridgement of freedoms from minorities happens everywhere, often without a second thought, for the "greater good" of the majority.

	17-07-2002 22:53									#163
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And it is not only racial minority, it can be political, religious, depends who your neighbours are

	17-07-2002 22:54									#164
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Wow, I find this absolutely horrifying, This doesn't sound anything like a neighborhood watch program!

Just think, a meter reader peeping into your window or delivery person peering over your shoulder can report anything they think they see (was that a vase ... or a bong?), and you have no access to the reports on you, or any way to defend yourself against erroneous accusations! Forget abuse - on this scale, the potential consequences of simple errata (ranging from mis-observations to data entry) is staggering.

You could go on for years not realizing various hardships in your life were due to an erroneous entry in your profile indicating you were involved in some sort of "suspicious activity", whatever that might be.



The threat of terrorism is simply not commensurate with such a wholesale and wanton sacrifice of liberty! This is a monumentally moronic, utterly un-American idea.

	17-07-2002 22:56									#165
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quote: This is a monumentally moronic, utterly un-American idea.

Yep, it's a Bush idea.

	17-07-2002 23:00									#166
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I guess you must like to be in communist China at the moment, once you come back make sure that you erase all those dangerous ideas you have been exposed to.

	17-07-2002 23:10									#167
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Guess what everyone, people can spy on you now and report bogus info to the police, fbi or any other government agency they want to. Just because your friggin milk man thinks you're suspicious and calls this tips line doesnt mean 10 minutes later some swat team is going to knock the guys door down. The information gathered would obviously be sorted and filtered. Every single tip reported is not going to be acted on. Or do you guys disagree?

People watch others all the time. Theres probably someone watching you right now.

You guys are so dramatic

	17-07-2002 23:14									#168
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quote: I guess you must like to be in communist China at the moment

If this half-baked idea sees the light of day, the average Chinese person will be much more free of gov't observation than his American counterpart!

More irony - to sacrifice so much freedom in the name of security, yet the program will contribute little to security at all!

What kind of terrorist leaves a bioweapon sitting on the coffee table where the UPS man can glimpse it?

	17-07-2002 23:16									#169
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Drake, if you read your history it's full of situations akin to this that, 20 or 30 years down the line, have ended up restaining civil liberties. This may not go down this route, but youre being very niave being so off hand about it (i take it youre not of arab desent?)

	17-07-2002 23:19									#170
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This program isn't even off the ground and you guys are talking apocalypse. Running around like chickens with your heads cut off.

What the hell does being arab have to do with being a terrorist? You said that. Not me pal.

	17-07-2002 23:22									#171
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Oops, did I say something wrong? I don't have a little American flag next to my name!

Did someone TIP on me?

	17-07-2002 23:24									#172
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quote: What the hell does being arab have to do with being a terrorist?

they shouldn't be related, but you can't deny that if anyone is looking for a terrorist in the US now, he would first check the Arab population.

	17-07-2002 23:28									#173
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quote: they shouldn't be related, but you can't deny that if anyone is looking for a terrorist in the US now, he would first check the Arab population.

And who would they look at first if such a program was started in your country? (since all of this is hypothetical anyway)

	17-07-2002 23:30									#174
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Drake, you oughtta read up on history a bit, you strike me as rather naive. This is all pretty familiar turf, the potential consequences are no secret.

I recommend starting with Napoleon and Mao.

	17-07-2002 23:33									#175
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quote: And who would they look at first if such a program was started in your country? (since all of this is hypothetical anyway)

probably Arabs also, but that is again related to 9-11, there haven't been any recent terrorist acts in Holland.
But what is your point with that question?

	17-07-2002 23:36									#176
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You strike me as a chicken little who thinks a stupid program like this is going to crumble the foundation of this country

quote: probably Arabs also, but that is again related to 9-11, there haven't been any recent terrorist acts in Holland. But what is your point with that question?

Same as yours. None.

	17-07-2002 23:39									#177
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what question did i ask?

	17-07-2002 23:39									#178
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quote: This program isn't even off the ground and you guys are talking apocalypse. Running around like chickens with your heads cut off.

-And programs like this better stay on the ground. Honestly, it sounds so much like the secret police forces employed by communist governments it's not even funny.

	17-07-2002 23:41									#179
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quote: You strike me as a chicken little who thinks a stupid program like this is going to crumble the foundation of this country

-It's a step in the wrong direction. Every journey begins with a single step. Ergo, this leads to bad stuff, and must be stopped.

	17-07-2002 23:42									#180
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quote: they shouldn't be related, but you can't deny that if anyone is looking for a terrorist in the US now, he would first check the Arab population.

This is the question....though it isn't phrased as one, it clearly is one.