17-07-2002 21:12									#61
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Vondrack, you seem to be very well-informed on this period.

Yes, Hitler played a role in the rebuilding of Germany. He himself did not do it, but he allowed it to happen. A weaker leader would have yielded under the pressure, but Hitler forged ahead.

That was Hitler's greatest asset and major flaw. He believed he was always right, and could do anything. Early on, this worked when his opponents were weaker. Later, from 1941 onwards, his aggressiveness and arrogance cost Germany dearly.

	17-07-2002 21:57									#62
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I see some people claim ignorance of alternative Indian leaders (in the true sense) . Here are my personal favourites
Samudragupt
Chandragupt Maurya
Ashok
Vikramaditya

in case you need more info about them do a google search

	17-07-2002 22:17									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Anguille2 i do not agree... When you meet an other country in CIV, you should be neutral...if i was facing Hitler, my only goal would be to destroy him...i just couldn't be neutral.

I agree. I have a hard enough time with Bismark's Germans.

	17-07-2002 22:18									#64
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A lot of well-informed arguments made concerning Herr Hitler.

I always felt, however, that the oddest leader choice was Ghandi, who, as others have observed, was a pacifistic religious leader. Ghandi transcended state politics. The notion of the Mahatma directing tank divisions and scrutininzing infantry positions just makes me chuckle every time.

One might as well make Jesus a civ leader! Can you imagine the cartoony, bobing head of the Messiah curling his lip and angrily demanding that you, "Remove your troops from my territory or DECLARE WAR!" Including Ghandi is equally obnoxious.

Of course, Firaxis chose Ghandi, as well as all the others, based on their Recognizability Quotient (TM,) not on any sense of historical accuracy. Look at the baffooned style of the animation and realize that their choices were whimsical, tongue-and-cheek selections made for a fifteen-year-old target audience.

Which makes me...what? An immature adult, playing a kiddie game. (shrug)

	17-07-2002 22:29									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Thomas Paine Of course, Firaxis chose Ghandi, as well as all the others, based on their Recognizability Quotient (TM,) not on any sense of historical accuracy. Look at the baffooned style of the animation and realize that their choices were whimsical, tongue-and-cheek selections made for a fifteen-year-old target audience.

You hit the nail on the head right here.

Which makes me particularly impressed with Firaxis for including Bismarck in, rather than anyone else, though that decision may have been impacted by the potential issues with including Hitler.

Ghandi was chosen simply because he's the most recognizable Indian that the western world knows of. The same thing will probably happen with whoever the Viking leader is in PtW (Erik the Red or Leif Eriksson).

	17-07-2002 22:46									#66
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I voted against Mao, Ghandi, Catherine, Cleopatra, and Joan of Arc.

Mao is certainly the most recognized Chinese leader, but he is too recent to qualify as the greatest leader. There were several Chinese emperors who could be worthier candidates:
- First Emperor of China (Shi-Huang-Di), Ying Zheng, who unified China for the first time ever, founded a government and society structure that remained competitive for 2000+ years(221BC - 1840AD).
- Emperor Wu of Han(Han-Wu-Di), Liu Xie, who ended the Hun threats and firmly established Confucianism as the state philosphie.
- The second emperor of Tang Dynasty(Tang Tai-Zong), Li Shimin, led to China to this biggest glory. Chinese culture spread to many surrounding nations, including Japan and Korea, under his rule. Actually, the Chinese version of Civilization 3 has him listed as Chinese Leader.
I would go with Li Shimin here since he is viewed by most Chinese as the best ruler in their history and also picked by Firaxis and Infogrames. The first 2, though they may have greater influences in history, were not undisputed and no less tyrannical than Mao.

Catherine is called "the Great", but her accomplishment paled in comparison to that of Peter the Great's and Lenin's. I would pick Peter here.

Joan of Arc would make a good GL, but leader of France? That's what Napoleon, Charlemagne, and Louis XIV are for.

Cleopatra is the most ridiculous choice of all. First, she was not an Egyptian; second, she ruled over a dying Egyptian kindom that had lost all kind of its earlier dynamics. Picking her is like picking Empress Dowager Cixi as the leader of China. Even the first Ptolemy would be a better choice. I would pick Ramses II for Egypt.

	17-07-2002 23:13									#67
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Ok, a lot of people have been saying Hitler rebuilt the German army. He did, but there was a reason it wasn't there, because of World War I. And rebuilding that army was illegal, the only reason Hitler was able to do so much is that everyone was afraid of starting a World War again, so they all let him do it. And he just happened to be the leader in charge. Yes, he was a very charismatic leader, but he was a military disaster. Generals like Rommel are the only reason he was able to succeed, almost every early defeat the Germans suffered in the war was because he tried to direct the military himself, he finally let his generals take over. Regardless, Hitler is considered "The" posterchild for evil. There is no way in hell any video game would ever allow him to be "The" defined leader of a civilization. For every one of you bigots out there who try to glorify him, there are millions of people who consider him to be one of the most evil people in history along with Stalin. Yes, they were a big part of the history, but the Civ's leaders are supposed to be a representative of the culture as a whole, exposing their best qualities and attributes. Hilter has none of these, the only people who would ever consider him to be a great figurehead are the same people who still think that he didn't do anything wrong.

	17-07-2002 23:22									#68
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Many players's behavior in Civ3, including mine, would even put Stalin and Hitler to shame.

Last edited by Lord Merciless on 17-07-2002 at 23:36

	18-07-2002 00:00									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Palleon For every one of you bigots out there who try to glorify him, there are millions of people who consider him to be one of the most evil people in history along with Stalin. ... Hilter has none of these, the only people who would ever consider him to be a great figurehead are the same people who still think that he didn't do anything wrong.

So, if I desire to include him for entertainment purposes, I'm a bigot? Let's try to refrain from throwing around insults and closing this intersting thread. If some folks believe that Hitler is a suitible replacement for Bismark, the editor allows them to make it so. If you think that's a bunch of crap, keep it as Firaxis intended. Let's just keep it clean, is all. Statements like this start flamewars wherein both sides consider themselves justified to keep going and close good threads.

	18-07-2002 01:38									#70
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Ignoring good or evil, Hitler was indeed a great leader. The fact that he turned Germany into a mighty juggernaut and almost conquered Europe alone made him 'great'. The word 'great' in the sense doesn't imply good or bad, just the impact and consequences of his actions.

In the past, Ghengis Khan and Tamerlane had also carried out genocidal wars, Tamerlane especially enjoyed errecting pyramid of skulls of slain enemy civilians. Yet these people have been viewed as 'great leaders' in the history. So I don't think 'greatness' is derived from being nice.

	18-07-2002 02:13									#71
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All the back-and-forth aside, the fact is that Firaxis chose leaders who seemed (in Western eyes, at least) to represent their countries the best. There is also a good deal of the recognizeability and entertainment factors.

However, to include Hitler, in light of these factors, would be impossible. First, it would be a slap in the face to Germans to suggest Hitler somehow embodies their culture and civilization. "For America, we pick a great man of noble intent. For England, a famous queen who brought England into the forefront of European powers. For Germany, a genocidal maniac who thrust his country into ruin, taking millions along with it."

And while including Hitler may be "fun" for some, for most, it would not be so. While it may be historically naive to create a special place for Hitler among history's baddies, considering other leaders have indeed killed more people for just as bad of reasons, Firaxis is in no position to put aside the massive amount of popular sentiment that names Hitler as history's worst monster. They would be undeniably stupid to do so.

Mao was probably an unwise choice in this light, but that choice doesn't make it alright to put in Hitler. He just ingenders so many strong feelings that his exclusion is the only sane choice.

Now, as for Washington: I don't see him as nearly as influential as Lincoln. He was a mediocre general during the Revolution, and the most notable things about his presidency were the self-restrain he used, which did indeed influence the office and how it was used. He could have become virtual king, but made very wise decisions to only hold 2 terms and to reject monarchal trappings. His farewell address was his finest moment.

Lincoln, however, saved the country and, IMO, had a far more lasting impact on American culture and power than Washington did. It is to Lincoln we owe our superpower status of today moreso than any other U.S. President. He laid the foundation for today's America.

	18-07-2002 04:18									#72
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Who is Hiavata and who are the Iroquis??

	18-07-2002 04:23									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Many players's behavior in Civ3, including mine, would even put Stalin and Hitler to shame.

Rubbish! You're playing a game. Hitler and Stalin were murderous tyrants.

	18-07-2002 04:25									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Who is Hiavata and who are the Iroquis??

What are a brand of snowmobile and a close relative of the Lakoti? ...Alex

	18-07-2002 04:43									#75
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Hitler was a political and diplomatic genius, but a military fool. He brought on the circumstances for a German build up, and nothing more. That is Hitler's role, aside from pretending to be a general and getting Germany beaten into the ground.

	18-07-2002 07:40									#76
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As I see it, there needs to be a certain middle-ground in the Leaders between historical significance & notariety.

My personal changes;

America - Either George Washington or Theadore Roosevelt
France - Napoleon
Egypt - Ramses II
Russia - Stalin, Lenin, or Ivan the Terrible.
China - Some ancient Chinese leader

	18-07-2002 11:27									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Darkworld Ark America - Either George Washington or Theadore Roosevelt France - Napoleon Russia - Stalin, Lenin

Here, here!

Either Georgie, Teddy or FDR for the US.

	18-07-2002 17:29									#78
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Change Cleopatra for Ramses II

	18-07-2002 21:32									#79
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I personally like Richard Nixon myself. But that seems to be a minority sentiment.

	18-07-2002 21:45									#80
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The minority, yes. But not alone in regards to Richard Nixon. He was a hell of a statesman, most people forget. But Nixon's greatest accomplishments occured outside of the office of Presidency, like George Bush Sr. and John Q. Adams.

	18-07-2002 22:53									#81
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As my foreign politics teacher once said, Richard Nixon was a horrible domestic president, but our best foreign relations man. Teddy Rosevelt (sp) was our best domestic statesman, but our worst foreign diplomat. But Nixon did a LOT for the US, started relations up with China and the USSR again, if not for Watergate, I still think he'd be in our list of 5 best presidents.

	18-07-2002 23:17									#82
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I concur with that. Nixon is akin to Bush Sr. in a lot of ways. Both were excellent diplomats and had a long and great history in politics. Then the presidency hit them and, well, we know how that turned out.

Back on topic. While Teddy Roosevelt is my personal favorite American President, I would agree that he is probably not the best choice for leader in Civ3. The common consensus lies between retaining Lincoln or removing him in favor of Washington. Now, Washington was a decent general, and his restraint in handling his power afterward as very admirable (very Cincinnatus of him), but I do not believe that he is the best choice of ‘greatest leader’ of the United States. I strongly support Lincoln or Ben Franklin. Franklin, after all, was also a talented statesman, internationalist, founding father, and truly the first American President.

	18-07-2002 23:38									#83
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Another good President that you can't overlook is FDR. 4 terms in office is twice as many as any other President. He did a lot to try and get the US out of the Great Depression, and also did a lot during the war before his death. He's had a great impact upon America, and is probably one of the most influential Presidents of the 20th century.

	18-07-2002 23:41									#84
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I have to say FDR would be a good choice too. Franklin would be ok, but he was never a president, although that doesn't seem to be a prerequisete. I'd like to see Churchill take Elizabeths spot in England though.

	18-07-2002 23:46									#85
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One cannot dismiss FDR or his accomplishments. But I feel that he as more of the "right man at the right time". A personality and policy such as his was needed and thus able to thrive in the conditions of the 1930's. Hitler was the same way. Note: I am not associating Hitler's policies or methods in any way with FDR's, merely making a point of how the 'right' man in the sort of environment and times they were in can thrive where they would not normally.

I have great respect for FDR, but I still think that Lincoln is the best man for the Civ3 leader job.

	18-07-2002 23:49									#86
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Palleon: Franklin was president under the Articles of Confederation, which was the intermediant government between the ending of the Revolutionary war and the 2nd Constitutional Convention wherein America's government as we know it was borne. So yes, Franklin was technically the first president of the United States, but only for about 4 years or so and really didn't have any actual power.

	18-07-2002 23:50									#87
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What I'd like to see is have Firaxis make 2-3 leader heads for each civ, and let the players decide which to use in their games. Make a Washington, FDR, and Lincoln, and let the player decide who they want to see. Players can do it I know, but hey, theres not too many pictures of Washington laying around for us to use, I wouldn't imagine it would take too much space or effort to make anouther 16 heads or so. Just throw em in with PTW.

	18-07-2002 23:52									#88
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Sounds likea cool idea, but unfortunatly I think we'll see wonder movies sooner

	19-07-2002 04:52									#89
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Why not then have one good and ine evil leader from each civ, ie:

English
Good: Liz 1st
Bad: John Major

	19-07-2002 05:50									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Palleon What I'd like to see is have Firaxis make 2-3 leader heads for each civ, and let the players decide which to use in their games. Make a Washington, FDR, and Lincoln, and let the player decide who they want to see. Players can do it I know, but hey, theres not too many pictures of Washington laying around for us to use, I wouldn't imagine it would take too much space or effort to make anouther 16 heads or so. Just throw em in with PTW.

nice idea, but i think i'd prefer a lot of other things in the game BEFORE a 2nd or 3rd leader not really worth the money, because it's the gameplay that's important, not so much the graphics. don't forget that creating leaderheads means creating 3D-meshes of them, rendering them from different angles and making them smile or froun, etc. in the same time they could remove some hardcoding, add some functions, make a real scenario editor and so on

back on-topic: wouldn't you guys miss lincolns beard and hat?
- after all, that's one of america's emblems
- gene roddenberry would have chosen abe too, as he considered lincoln as a "good" person
- there's no car brand called "roosevelt"