16-07-2002 21:09									#1
	Which leaders you'd change Inflate your Upload Space

Which leaders do you think aren't worthy to be in game? (please check)

	16-07-2002 21:19									#2
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I'd change Joan of Arc (to some middle ages France king, Joan of Arc option as leader is funny because she never ruled a state), President Lincoln (to George Washington or Franklin Delano Roosevelt) and Bismarck (to Adolf Hitler).

	16-07-2002 21:45									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic I'd change Joan of Arc (to some middle ages France king, Joan of Arc option as leader is funny because she never ruled a state), President Lincoln (to George Washington or Franklin Delano Roosevelt) and Bismarck (to Adolf Hitler).

Sorry, but proposing Hitler shall be taken as an offence by anyone knowing at least a sh*t about history and WW2. That figure has absolutely no right to appear in a game like Civ. How do you think German players would feel about the game? How could anyone play as Germans, not feeling uneasy? I mean to sound harsh.

	16-07-2002 21:51									#4
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quote: Bismarck (to Adolf Hitler)

Please don't be inflammatory...do you think Firaxis could get away with this?

Anyway, change Egypt, Russia, France, and possibly China. I think the most necessary changes are the first three.

	16-07-2002 21:57									#5
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I changed Bismark to Hitler. Caterina to Stalin as well. Not to mention Joan of Arc to Napoleon.

	16-07-2002 21:59									#6
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Bismarck-> Frederick the Great
Cleopatra-> Almost any of the early Pharoes would be better
Lincoln-> Washington
Ghandi-> A number of choices
Mao-> Qin Shi Huang Di

Last edited by SpencerH on 17-07-2002 at 23:51

	16-07-2002 22:18									#7
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Id rather have Henry VIII as English king, instead of that virgin queen.

	16-07-2002 22:20									#8
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I personally would also like to go against Hitler and really kick his arse! But realistically it shouldnt be allowed. The man was just too evil!

	16-07-2002 22:32									#9
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Joan d'Ark has to be the oddest choice by the developers. She was more of a nationalist icon than anything else. She wasn't a political leader, an economic leader or a true military leader. Joan was there at the battles, but did she really know what she was doing?

	16-07-2002 22:47									#10
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So Hitler was bad and Mao wasn't? Stalin for example killed more people than Hitler and even if people calls him bad, there wouldn't have been such reaction here if I named him (however, I think Catherine is better choice than Stalin, because Catherine also expanded Empire and Stalin didn't created his ideology - Lenin/Marx did. Lenin maybe would be a good choice but he didn't expanded Union as much as Stalin and Catherine did). Hitler was bad, but there were much worse, and after all Hitler was a strong leader. People thinks he was the worst man only because all the prejustice everyone is given at school etc. And this is only because he lost the war (look at quoute at my signature). Stalin was worse. And beyond Truman order also many civilians were killed. Yes, putting Hitler wouldn't help sell the game and he was bad, but he wasn't the worst and he was strong leader. Even if Hitler would have killed 100 times more people than he did, he still should been here (and then he should be here even more). Leaders could be good or bad, but if the does impact for nation/world, then they are strong leadres. And Hitler did that impact.

	16-07-2002 22:53									#11
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quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 I changed Bismark to Hitler. Caterina to Stalin as well. Not to mention Joan of Arc to Napoleon.

You must have a very negative view of the world.

	16-07-2002 23:20									#12
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I would definitely change Joan to Napoleon, making her the French leader always bugged the heck out of me. I would also advise changing Cleo to Ramses II and Catherine to good ol' Vlad Lenin.

	16-07-2002 23:30									#13
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Chancelor Bismarck => I have no clue who he is
Queen Elisabeth => She's walking death...and have no clue who she is...
Czar Chaterina => Got no idea who she is

The rest are perfect, nobody fits in more perfect than those who are there now...

	16-07-2002 23:56									#14
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I'm going to have to back Sonic up on his choices - they aren't necessarily mine, but if you think of the way Civilization is designed, Hitler & Stalin are not inappropriate choices. Many of us play Civilization as warmongerers, literally killing the population of the other civs. Even those that aren't all that into war want to dominate the rest of the civ-world. Strategies can involve espionage and culture bombing, neither of which are pleasant for the involved civilizations.

Civ 3 isn't about peace and harmony. If anyone is going to get up-in-arms over a leader choice, we should be really pissed off about Ghandi as a selection. He lived a life of peace, and I quote him with this: "Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man." And yet Firaxis has the gall to place his visage in a game that revolves around WAR. Anyone that wishes to play their political-correctness card should start here.

With the exception of Ghandi, I believe EVERY other leader in the game has either killed a man with his/her own hands OR authorized an army to do so. It is true, Hitler was devious, overzealous and fundamentally evil. But the same could be said for Montezuma, a man who daily sacrificed his own people for religious reasons. Hitler's 'Aryan Nation' was effectively a religion in itself.

My point is that Sonic's propositions are not out of line. You can't play a game of Civilization without seeing death and destruction, even if they are cartoon-ified. Take off your rose-colored glasses and see the game for what it is. Hitler, if anything, would be the MOST appropriate leader for this game.

	16-07-2002 23:58									#15
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I'd go with Lenin over Cathrine, and Napoleon over Joan of Arc.

While Hitler would be fun to play against, I suppose Hitler IS, after all, as offensive to Germans as Reagan is to Americans. Then again, a WWII scenario featuring Hitler and a cold war scenario featuring Reagan would both be fun.

	17-07-2002 00:08									#16
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I would change Joan of Arc to Napoleon
And maybe Catharina to Lenin or Stalin

Bismarck is fine for Germany, and I think Hitler would have been acceptable too.

	17-07-2002 00:39									#17
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I would change Cathrine... I can't stand seeing her in diplomatic negotiations!

	17-07-2002 01:25									#18
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Cleopatra -> Ramses (either I or II)
Joan D'Arc -> Napoleon
Lincoln -> Truman

As for Rome, Cæsar was never the leader of Rome. So in my Latin Mod (please download and try ), I changed it from Cæsar to Augustus, the first and longest lasting emperor. I also changed the title from Emperor to Cæsar, since that was all the emperor's formal title.

	17-07-2002 01:42									#19
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Julius Caesar served as dictator for a few years before he was assasinated Thrawn.

	17-07-2002 01:59									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic So Hitler was bad and Mao wasn't? Stalin for example killed more people than Hitler and even if people calls him bad, there wouldn't have been such reaction here if I named him.

I was not advocating the choice of Mao - actually that is also a rather disturbing one, but I can't recall any Chinese I might want to replace him with... Most Western people know very little about great Chinese leaders.

I would oppose Stalin as fiercely as I oppose Hitler.

quote: Originally posted by Sonic Hitler was bad, but there were much worse, and after all Hitler was a strong leader. People thinks he was the worst man only because all the prejustice everyone is given at school etc.

Sorry, have to disagree strongly. Only after reading a lot about WW2 I came to understand how much evil Hitler was. He was a charismatic leader, that is correct. But it was mostly because of his megalomaniac, ill-thought military and political decisions that made Germany lose the war eventually.

quote: Originally posted by Sonic And this is only because he lost the war (look at quoute at my signature). Stalin was worse. And beyond Truman order also many civilians were killed.

Yep, it is true that most leaders do cause people die in one way or another. But NONE of the leaders currently featured in Civ3 could stand up against the pure evil Hitler was. The level of destruction he caused was simply times bigger than for the rest of the leaders combined. The fact that Stalin was worse does not qualify Hitler for a Civ3 leader any better.

quote: Originally posted by Sonic Yes, putting Hitler wouldn't help sell the game and he was bad, but he wasn't the worst and he was strong leader. Even if Hitler would have killed 100 times more people than he did, he still should been here (and then he should be here even more). Leaders could be good or bad, but if the does impact for nation/world, then they are strong leadres. And Hitler did that impact.

It is rather difficult for me to argue against such a cynical approach. It seems that further discussion on this topic would be useless, as we may hardly find a common ground. Do you really think that the more people someone causes to die, the more he deserves to be featured in Civ3?

I am not trying to be politically correct. After getting involved in the localization of several multimedia titles about WW2, learning a lot about WW2 in the process, I feel very strongly about this issue. Crediting Hitler for anything but unbelievable destruction brought to the world is something I will always fiercely oppose.

	17-07-2002 02:07									#21
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One thing I would love to see is a male/female leader for every nation. I know it would be difficult for many civs, but it is rather weird when the game asks for my gender/title and after learning it, happily leaves Catherine's picture in place...

Something like:

Joan - Napoleon
Elizabeth - Henry VIII
Cleo - Ramses

OK, I know it is nonsense... I just feel uneasy seeing myself as that ugly woman...

Maybe making the leader animation a more tailorable feature with the possibility of creating one's own one or using a still picture?

	17-07-2002 02:26									#22
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Vondrack -

Please check out my earlier post. I still think those opposing Hitler/Stalin/Napoleon are approaching the topic from the wrong angle. Civilization is not a game for peace-lovers, and, to be honest, many many many players use strategies that resemble the strategies Hitler implemented during WW2: He made his own population suffer, terrorized/enslaved/killed anyone that stood in his way and made no excuses for it. How many times have you, while playing Civ 3, broken a peace treaty, killed off your own population to rush a city improvement, razed a city, destroyed an entire civilization? It isn't a stretch to say that playing Civ 3 is vicariously carrying out the very plans Hitler dreamed of. THUS, you and others shouldn't be disgusted by a proposition that Hitler be a leader, you should instead be disgusted when real-life peaceful leaders, like Ghandi, are thrust into a game that revolves around war.

	17-07-2002 02:32									#23
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I can't believe so many posters don't want to see Bismarck in the game!
I thought he was the perfect choice for Germany. I would take him over Fredrick the Great any day.

	17-07-2002 02:35									#24
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I don't think the more people person kills the more better candidate for civ3 he is, but I think the more impact on history someone does the better candidate for civ3 he is.

	17-07-2002 02:45									#25
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Chancelor Bismarck => created German nation, what more is needed?
Queen Elizabeth => ruled forever, beat Spainish, set the foundation for the UK.
Shaka Zulu => The only Zulu leader that the general gamers might re-cognize.
Chief Montezuma => Lost to Spainish, the only well-known Aztec leader.
Chief Hiawatha => Don't know much about the Iroquois, but he's in the poem.
Emperor Xerxes => The Persians have Cyrus and Darius (both successful) but the screw-up gets the nod?
King Alexander III (the Great) => Father conquers the Hellas, he conquers Persia... it works
Queen Cleopatra => She defended her nation to the death in the face of overwhelming Roman force.
King Hammurabi => You could flip a coin between him and Nebucenzzer II (i mispelled that...).
Saint Jeanne d'Arc => Didn't even lead France, its obvious that Napolean should be here.
Shogun Tokugawa => Unified feudal Japan and created its greatest city (modern) in Tokyo.
President Lincoln => He's fine, for Washington fits as a military leader but FDR could be very good too...
Emperor Caesar => Conquers Gaul and Britianna, and dominates Roman politics for the rest of its history.
Mahatma Ghandi => As before I know very little of Indian history, but he is re-cognizable.
Chairman Mao => His guy MUST go. He out-murdered Hitler and Stalin combined and HE get it!
Czar Catherine II => Peter the Great would be better due to he did more to modernize Russian than her.

Hum... so i get 2 must changes and 4 more that could be changed all and all.

	17-07-2002 02:49									#26
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I can't believe so many posters don't want to see Bismarck in the game! I thought he was the perfect choice for Germany. I would take him over Fredrick the Great any day.

And I can't believe that many don't want the georgeus Joan d' Arc to be the leader of France...She's as much of a leader as Napoleon, but she got a great bonus...she's a she...a damn good looking she in fact...

	17-07-2002 02:56									#27
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ADG - are you talking about in real life, or in Civ 3? I wonder if my Joan looks like everyone elses - because mine is NOT cute. She looks like a Chubby Gerber baby....BOY. Not appealing at all.

	17-07-2002 03:02									#28
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I don't want to start a whole Pro Mao vs. Anti-Mao debate, but I will just say this. I think Mao is largely misunderstood in western thought. He prevented China from falling once again to western Imperialism, and put China on the path to being a great world power in the latter part of the twentieth century. I am not a big fan of Mao by any means, and some of his programs such as the Cultural revolution were admittedly brutal, but I think a fair case can be made that he did more for China than any other Chinese leader, and certainly, at least more than any other Chinese leader that would be remotely famillar to westerners.

Plus you have to admit his big fluffy hat rocks.

	17-07-2002 03:23									#29
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar While Hitler would be fun to play against, I suppose Hitler IS, after all, as offensive to Germans as Reagan is to Americans. Then again, a WWII scenario featuring Hitler and a cold war scenario featuring Reagan would both be fun.

Now you've got me anticipating PTW regicide games with Reagan as the American leader. I would have to keep reloading the autosave so I could kill him over and over.

	17-07-2002 03:48									#30
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Joan of Arc is ridiculous, and so is Cleopatra, who wasn't even Egyptian, but I suppose they didn't want a wholly male cast of leaders. I would suggest Louis XIV or Napoleon in Joan's place, and Ramses or Akhenaten in Cleopatra's place. George Washington seems like a better American leader. I have no particular quarrel with any of the other choices.