17-07-2002 08:33									#1
	Stupid AI Get a bigger avatar today!

I have had this problem with diplomacy and the AI for some time now, and I'd like to know if anyone else has had it, and if it's being planned to be fixed in the upcoming patch. The AI will not accept gold per turn from me. For example, I was trying to get silks from the Indians. I offered 3 resources for it, and my advisor said we almost have a deal. I threw in 5 gold per turn, and all of the sudden it went to "They will feel insulted". When I offer gold per turn as a tribute, they get insulted also. Even when the deal would already last 20 turns, they refuse to accept it. The only time I am able to get a deal with them for gold per turn is when they demand it as part of their deal, but if I offer it at any point, it gets them angry. This seems to be a glaring bug to me, it would make no sense for them to get offended over it.

	17-07-2002 08:36									#2
	Support Apolyton

I have never seen this but try asking them what they want for a certain resource or whatever and if they ask for GPT then take out what you don't want to give them and add gold to what they originally offered.

But I have no idea what could be causing it.

	17-07-2002 09:40									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, its more of a problem when I'm trying to offer a deal for something, and they won't ask for gpt, and I'd rather pay 25 gpt instead of 400 lump sum at the time. But it's more just confusing that gpt just absolutely infuriates all AI.

	17-07-2002 10:01									#4
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I've noticed the same thing. One time just to see what would happen I made an offer that the AI liked that was a lump sum for a tech. Then I substuted gold points per turn that after 20 turns would be twice as much as the lump sum. They went from accepting the deal to being insulted.

	17-07-2002 10:01									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

Yeah, it is quite stupid Palleon. But it apparently had something to do with the AI not being able to pay out more than they earn. And since they like to trade amongst themselves, its difficult for you to get per turn out of them.

I have however gotten per turn for luxuries.

I just wished the vassal system would be reinforced with per turn, where the AI would be forced to cut expenses to agree with your per turn. as it stands, its difficult to get tribues from beaten civs now. make the whole empire idea less appealing.

	17-07-2002 10:39									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

the only time the ai has got mad at me for a gpt offer is after i hurt my reputation. if you sign an mutual protection pact and have to go to war with a trading partner, your rep is toast. it can also happen if a resourse you are trading is pillaged and you cant fullfill your end of the deal anymore. sometimes the ai will get mad if you raze someones city and hold it against you for a long time. other than that i cant think of anything else that would cause that to happen.

	17-07-2002 10:58									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Dexter:

We're not talking about demanding gpt from the AI, it's giving gpt to the AI.

I once asked the English what they wanted for radio and they said they wanted my map, a tech and 400 gold, so I changed it to 20 gpt (for Wall Street) and they were insulted. By the time I offered 200 gpt and they said no I realised there was something wrong. So yes, I have had this problem too. It might be a bug, but it's not really that big of a problem.

	17-07-2002 10:59									#8
	Re: Stupid AI Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Palleon . . . This seems to be a glaring bug to me, it would make no sense for them to get offended over it.

In the world of Firaxis there are no "bugs" - just "ideas".

You think all that is dumb? I can top it. I have a tech swap good to go with an AI civ. To be nice I throw in SIX resources (including iron) FREE of charge. The AI insults me and cancels the deal. That's Civ 3 for you.

	17-07-2002 11:03									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes - I have had this problem as well. Even to the extent that I had a deal and decided to throw in some gold per turn as well and they became insulted!!!

Can't say that I will be insulted if I was offered a 20 year pension after I was already happy with a deal!

	17-07-2002 11:45									#10
	Tired of ads?

I get that sort of nonsense all the time, a few possibilities:
If your credit rating is bad, they wont accept anything per turn. That is you previously gave them something per turn, then broke the deal. But deals can be broken through other ways and they still blame you. For example if you are trading through another civs territory, then the in between civ declares war. The trade route is broken so the trade stops. No-one will ever trade per-turn with you again

I've had some odditities such as the only civ which will trade per-turn with me being the one which declared war on me. Prehaps the AI recognises when it breaks the deal, but the other civs only recognise that you stopped the payments.

This bothers me quite a lot, the AI is so anal about it that even after a single offense which wasn't really your fault they wont even accept gifts of stuff per turn. I mean, what do they have to lose

While risk evaluation is difficult for a computer, there are some always-win cases, like accepting a gift, which should be coded. Also forgivness would IMO make the AI appear more human, especially if they forgive old greviances, and especially if it was against another civ.

	17-07-2002 12:04									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yep, have to second opinions of most people here. Although it may be perfectly okay if the AI does not accept per turn payments because of your broken reputation, I have also seen too many cases when I was completely clueless what the problem was.

It would be nice if the Foreign Advisor told you "They would be insulted by the deal, because we were breaking our deals in the past and they do not believe we would fulfil our obligations." Or something to that effect... the game apparently has some reason to consider a deal bad, so why not publicly stating it?

	17-07-2002 12:54									#12
	Re: Re: Stupid AI Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Coracle In the world of Firaxis there are no "bugs" - just "ideas". You think all that is dumb? I can top it. I have a tech swap good to go with an AI civ. To be nice I throw in SIX resources (including iron) FREE of charge. The AI insults me and cancels the deal. That's Civ 3 for you.

Yet you still play it

	17-07-2002 16:39									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Keep in mind, it’s not what you want to give the AI that matters. It’s what the AI wants to get from you that controls the deal. If you have broken deals or alliances, the AI will not deal on a per turn basis. Think of it as COD instead of net 30 days.

In one game I had over-tweaked production and had a pile of surplus cash. As I was playing the Americans, I decided to “help” some of my less fortunate neighbors. I was giving three different civs 100 gold per turn. After I had completed several of these “humanitarian” (or would that be “simitarian”) missions, my rep was so good that almost every deal I made was bringing gpt.

And Coracle, have you considered buying a strategy guide? They are written specifically for people who just can’t seem to get a handle on the game’s advanced features.

	17-07-2002 16:46									#14
	Remove this text

Did you have a negative cashflow? The AI usually turns down gpt offers if you are losing money every turn.

	17-07-2002 16:57									#15
	Re: Stupid AI Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Palleon The AI will not accept gold per turn from me.

I often make deals for gpt, both offering and receiving, sometimes for hundreds per turn. You obviously have bad credit. It is insulting to offer someone payments on account, when you have stiffed them previously.

	17-07-2002 18:25									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The AI is actually more than happy to trade GPT if they have GPT to trade. This is very rare, except late in the game and/or harder difficulty levels (and insane production bonuses). And sometiems, for no apparent reason, an AI will suddenly start having GPT to trade.
(Well, the reason is they musta stopped maxing science, but it's not clear why they only do it very rarely... when it's a very valid strategy quite often...).
Well, the AI is just bad in that area. And could be improved. Especially by adding multiple 'strategies' (Max science, Max gold, etc....) that it can choose between.

And I don't think there is ever ever ever any reason to accept a gift of 1 gold, but not a gift of 1 gpt for 20 turns

	17-07-2002 18:36									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by miccofl And Coracle, have you considered buying a strategy guide? They are written specifically for people who just can’t seem to get a handle on the game’s advanced features.

While this suggestion made me ROFL, as it expresses what I think of Coracle's neverending complaints better than I would be able to formulate it, it is fair to note that there is probably no good Civ3 strategy guide around, I think. The Official Prima Strategy Guide was not particularly helpful even on the release date and is now quite useless due to numerous important changes and adjustments introduced in the subsequent patches.

	17-07-2002 19:29									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: there is probably no good Civ3 strategy guide around

Sorry Coracle, you're SOL.

	17-07-2002 20:17									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd agree with the majority here: most likely you broke some kind of trade deal or alliance in the past, which means your reputation is FUBAR. The AI will probably still accept lump sums, though.

-Arrian

	17-07-2002 20:41									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

But what about this situation, which is downright infuriating.

You're at war with an AI, and killing it. You've taken out the majority of his/her/it's army, and are beginning to romp through its territory. So, you take 20% of his cities, your republic starts to get mad at you (because you started the war), and you just want out, because you are waging a limited campaign.

Then, at the peace table, you demand city x and city y. Now, the AI says that they will give you city x for peace, or city y for peace. However, when you demand both, the advisor tells you "we are getting close to a deal"...

Now, the infuriating part. If you offer them gold to make up the difference, the advisor goes to "insulted." If you offer gpt, the advisor also goes sour. Even if you offer tech, world map, ROP, MPP, or anything else (I haven't had any workers in my capital, or I would have tried that)- the AI won't take it.

So, why are you always left with a bad deal? What can you offer them to prevent the "insulted" face and still get both cities?

	17-07-2002 20:55									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

I would like to see the addition on the foreign advisor screen as to what your reputation actually is. It would be nice to know what people think of you, and what you did to ruin it. Also, I don't think the AI is really affected by this, I've seen them break MPP and ROP agreements all the time to go to war with a civ, mainly because I dragged them into a war specificially to tarnish their reputation (They make a MPP, I give them some tech for them to declare war), and they have anouther MPP up as soon as the war is over. If I had done that, I'd never be able to even get an ROP again, let alone the fact that civs will usually say I broke a ROP agreement even when I never had one. But I've said this many times before, diplomacy and the UN need major overhauls in this game, it's one of the only things in Civ3 I can actually say I've been disappointed in. They did so much work to make SMAC a diplomatic masterpiece, then dumbed down the system for this.