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civman2000
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of the Martian Empire
Jun 2001
time: 23:20
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1. No one shall be banned permanently from participating in the democracy game, excluding those who are permanently banned from apolyton.
2. No one shall ever be restricted from any poll, unless after the poll it is found that non-members may have significantly altered the vote. In elections, this is only the case if the winner has under 55% support and the people vote to discard nonmember votes by a >50% vote.
3. No member shall ever be denied the right to vote in any poll.
4. No one shall be denied free speech unless it violates apolyton rules, is off topic, or (only if it a a new thread that is posted) it is redundant with a pre-existing thread.
5. No one shall be denied the right to post an unofficial poll, unless it violates apolyton rules, is off topic, or it is redundant with a pre-existing thread.
6. THe right to associate into any form of organization shall not be denied.
7. In the absence of any specific rule concerning a poll in the constitution, it is won by the option that wins the most votes. Thus, until an amendment is passed concerning a type of poll, those polls may be posted without any special rules about how the results determine our actions. However, if an amendment is passed that would change the results (say make it require 2/3 when it only got 60%) it may be repolled without the 3-week waiting period.
DIscuss!
Last edited by civman2000 on 17-07-2002 at 19:04
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mtgillespie
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Manchester, England
Oct 2001
time: 05:20
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quote:
2. No one shall ever be restricted from any poll, unless after the poll it is found that non-members may have significantly altered the vote. In elections, this is only the case if the winner has under 55% support and the people vote to discard nonmember votes by a >50% vote. |
You can't have a vote where the "electorate" may change afterwards, depending on the result. The criteria have to be stated beforehand, whether in the constitution or the poll itself, and adhered to.
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5. No one shall be denied the right to post an unofficial poll, unless it violates apolyton rules, is off topic, or it is redundant with a pre-existing thread. |
Why should the people be denied the ability to ban certain types of poll in the future? It will still take a 2/3 majority, as it would need to be an amendment. Personally i can't think of many types of poll that we might feel the need to ban, but that doesn't mean they won't come up. This is an unecessary set of handcuffs.
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6. THe right to associate into any form of organization shall not be denied. |
ANY form of organization? Again, i don't agree. I think with both 5 and 6 you're (over)reacting to current polls, i.e the ones to ban pre-election gallup polls, and political parties. But both are being defeated, by the will of the people, and that should be the deciding factor on these issues. Leave it up to us to decide, as each issue comes up.
As for the rest  seems OK to me.
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Sheik
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This is a great idea civman I especially like point 6.
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Captain
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by Divine Right
May 2001
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by civman2000
1. No one shall be banned permanently from participating in the democracy game, excluding those who are permanently banned from apolyton.
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quote:
2. No one shall ever be restricted from any poll, unless after the poll it is found that non-members may have significantly altered the vote. In elections, this is only the case if the winner has under 55% support and the people vote to discard nonmember votes by a >50% vote.
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Non-members should not be allowed to vote.
Canadians do not elect the American President, and vice versa (except for those with dual citizenship).
No-member votes should always be discounted, but since that is a hassle, we will only check where there are grounds for suspicion.
Plus, statement #2 is overly complex and applicable to only limited circumstances.
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3. No member shall ever be denied the right to vote in any poll.
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I'd like to clarify by adding:
Members becomes citizens at the time of their posting in the JOIN thread. Either (a) they are eligible to vote for any polls created after that time or (b) they are eligible to vote for any polls created 24 hrs prior or (c) they are eligible to vote for any polls whatsoever.
I prefer (a), consider it to be something of a 'maturing period'. All democracies discriminate somewhat by limiting the voting age (18 in Canada but the age is arbitrary) so I consider this an acceptable practice.
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4. No one shall be denied free speech unless it violates apolyton rules, is off topic, or (only if it a a new thread that is posted) it is redundant with a pre-existing thread.
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I am wary of the term "free speech" as differing interpretations exist, some dangerous.
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5. No one shall be denied the right to post an unofficial poll, unless it violates apolyton rules, is off topic, or it is redundant with a pre-existing thread.
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We should be able to pass laws banning certain types of polls if we choose. For example, the pre-election opinion polls. It doesn't mean we will, I just think we should have that option.
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6. THe right to associate into any form of organization shall not be denied.
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quote:
7. In the absence of any specific rule concerning a poll in the constitution, it is won by the option that wins the most votes. Thus, until an amendment is passed concerning a type of poll, those polls may be posted without any special rules about how the results determine our actions. However, if an amendment is passed that would change the results (say make it require 2/3 when it only got 60%) it may be repolled without the 3-week waiting period.
DIscuss! |
This is not an issue for a "Bill of Rights Amendment". #7 should be removed. This should be in a separate amendment, considering how important the issue is. Poll results, electoral results, etc... require more thought and should be voted on itself, not piggy-backing on other ideas.
However, all in all, great work civman! (note: I did not capitalize the c)
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:20
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Points 4 and 5 are not really handled by us at all. These are subjects within the domain of moderators, and whatever their ruling is, is at the foundation of all that we can legislate here. We do not need these clauses at all, since they are already taken care of no OT, no violation of 'Poly rules). As for the "redundant with pre-existing polls/threads" part, we cannot actually stop this from happening, merely inform the poll starter of where to find the earlier thread, and collectively ignore such a thread/poll if it refuses to die.
1, 2 and 3 are terrific. I wish I had thought of them so I could take the credit.  6 seems a little iffy to me... although unlikely, it legalizes the foundation and operation of a group designed solely to impede progress or overly criticize the Government etc. Perhaps we can leave this out, and make a ruling on a case-by-case basis if there is ever any issue with an organization here.
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:20
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I'm only commenting on the clauses I disagree with. Those I leave out I give a to.
quote:
Originally posted by civman2000
2. No one shall ever be restricted from any poll, unless after the poll it is found that non-members may have significantly altered the vote. In elections, this is only the case if the winner has under 55% support and the people vote to discard nonmember votes by a >50% vote. |
IMO opinion, non-members should always not be be allowed to vote. And there definitely shouldn't be a post-election decision on whether or not to discount non-member votes this way; too much possibility of political maneuvering of the votes.
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5. No one shall be denied the right to post an unofficial poll, unless it violates apolyton rules, is off topic, or it is redundant with a pre-existing thread. |
As many others have said, this should be left open to case-by-case decisions. (Like gallup polls.)
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6. THe right to associate into any form of organization shall not be denied. |
I think this should also be left to case-by-case.
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7. In the absence of any specific rule concerning a poll in the constitution, it is won by the option that wins the most votes. Thus, until an amendment is passed concerning a type of poll, those polls may be posted without any special rules about how the results determine our actions. However, if an amendment is passed that would change the results (say make it require 2/3 when it only got 60%) it may be repolled without the 3-week waiting period. |
As others have said, this should be a seperate amendment.
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
What I don't understand at all is, Civman2000, wasn't it you, who founded this 3AC... (whatever) party, which was meant to be against a constitution, because it "sucks the fun out of the game like a leech"? If so, why do you now care so much about it? |
I can't officially speak for civman here, but as I was a cofounder of the AAAC in the Civ2 game and also in the 3A2C3 here, I feel qualified to say that, since our anti-Constitutional views are meaningless now, we must adapt to suit our environment. Therefore, since we have a Constitution, we must make it say exactly what it needs to say.
The Constitution, IMO, leads to confusion, and I thinklooking at almost any thread will provide evidence of such. Thus, the Constitution must be made the least confusing possible.
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Captain
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by Divine Right
May 2001
time: 00:20
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I like this version, but with one modification and a re-ordering:
quote:
Originally posted by Togas
No person shall be denied the right to become a citizen of Apolytonia.
No citizen may be denied to right to participate in this game, including voting in unregistered polls, without due process.
The right of free speech, in all it's form, shall not be unreasonably restricted or denied to all citizens of Apolytonia.
The right of all citizens to associate and organize shall not be infringed upon.
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By unregistered poll, I mean all other polls besides an official poll whereby previous registration (provided by signing up on the topped member list) is required for your votes to count. (Albeit a small danger, this prevents unethical "recruiting" of "ringers" after a poll has been posted. Therefore, if you didn't join/register before a registered poll was created, you are not elgible to vote on that.)
Well, that was a long explanation, but maybe someon can help refine it.
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17-07-2002 18:50
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