18-07-2002 00:12									#1
	Questions from a newbie - long Full PM-box? Change here!

Hi, folks. I've stopped here only a few times, all in the past several days. Some folks in the chatroom answered my initial question and helped get my current game back on track.

I've been playing the game on an almost daily basis since Christmas. (Thanks to my son for the great gift.) I've successfully completed a number of games in that time, but as soon as one is done, I've thought up a new scenario I just have to try.

My current game was bogged down due to corruption, when I read threads yesterday about the editor. I didn't even know it came with one. Anyway, I edited the preferred number of cities on a large map from 24 to 100, and, WHAM! I'm off and running again.

Now the questions:

1. I never liked to take advantage of cheat codes in other games unless it was just a quick run through to see the reward graphic at the end of a game. I convinced myself that the change I made last night wasn't really cheating as the rule applies to the AI players also. Do you agree?

2. What other types of changes have you made that made your games more enjoyable? I was afraid to change units, wonders, terrain, etc until I better understood what I was changing. The corruption model was pretty easy to see right away.

3. OK, feel free to start piling on me here. I have never applied any patches to my original game. I didn't even know they existed until I stumbled onto this board. I don't follow the gaming industry closely, and don't read the magazines. As it is, I hardly have time for my Civ addiction. I am running version 1.07, I believe. (Writing from work). Should I apply the patches? A few major reasons why? Can you point me to a thread that explains the previous patches (I saw today's)? Do I need to apply them in a sequential fashion? I saw a reference in a post somewhere about the elimination of "God mode". Can someone explain what that is?

If you're still reading by this point, thanks in advance for any help you can provide. If I can ever add to a discussion in the future, I certainly will, now that I know this place exists. It was kinda' cool reading here. Quite a few of the tips and hints I had discovered myself - the hard way. However, I also picked up a lot of new ideas, and now have to plan to squander many more hours on new scenarios I have to try.

	18-07-2002 00:20									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Most definitely install the up-to-date patch. Right now it's 1.21, but I would wait until Friday for 1.29.

You don;t need to install them sequentially.

The search function on Apolyton works pretty well... search for 1.21f in the title.

Welcome to further addiction.

	18-07-2002 00:49									#3
	re: God Mode Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Once upon a time, if you saved any game with the letters "multi" (lower case in that order) in the file name after reloading you could: see the whole map, see all units, see what enemy civs were producing, change enemy production, see all resources (even ones you hadn't the tech for yet) and probably a few other things I'm leaving out.

Wlecome to the forum.

	18-07-2002 00:58									#4
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Actually, since you're unpatched God Mode should still work for you.

	18-07-2002 01:15									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

You should definitely apply the latest patch, 1.21f, or better yet - as suggested before - wait until Friday and use 1.29f. You will be surprised how much Firaxis changed based on the players' feedback (including the corruption that you dislike so much - it was the same for me, 1.07f was really tough). I guess the reasonable corruption adjustment should be enough for you to go for the patch. But there are lots of other improvements made to the game. I dare to say that Civ3 in its 1.21f incarnation is a lot different from the factory release.

I also suggest scanning the forums for threads focused on the things introduced by the patches, as not knowing what was fixed/changed/added/removed might easily make you think something is wrong...

Welcome aboard!

	18-07-2002 01:39									#6
	Tired of ads?

By 1.21 the corruption issue was fixed (in my opinion). It's manageable now. It still will hamper you (and the AI), as it should. The game was designed that way. But it's no longer crippling.

I agree with Theseus, wait until friday and download the 1.29 patch. Play it, come here and ask questions, and then modify it if you don't like it.

-Arrian

	18-07-2002 03:51									#7
	Re: Questions from a newbie - long Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by wisdave My current game was bogged down due to corruption, when I read threads yesterday about the editor. I didn't even know it came with one. Anyway, I edited the preferred number of cities on a large map from 24 to 100, and, WHAM! I'm off and running again.

Changing the civ3mod.bic file only applies to new games. I don't believe there is a way to modify an existing game. (at least according to a post I saw when I was trying to figure out why the changes I'd made were not showing up).

BTW, as to rationalizing if it's cheating or not, the way I look at it is you're just playing a different version of the game: one where corruption plays a smaller role.

Edit: Mod changes will not apply to existing games but the patches will. To be honest though, for all that everyone was talking about the patches reducing corruption I didn't find them to be all that effective. If you're playing on a large map, and you establish a city on a distant continent you'll still have so much corruption that you won't be able to build anything in that city.

And back to the rationalization issue, IMO, this corruption business is stupid and unrealistic. It's like saying that Hong Kong was able to produce nothing since it was so far away from the British capital. In fact HK is a massive and bustling metropolis. For that reason I don't like playing with these corruption rules. I just found a post suggesting modding all city improvements so they reduce corruption. I'll be doing that for my next game (not sure if it really works though).

	18-07-2002 04:33									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Just got home from work. Thanks for all of the replies, and the welcome aboards! I appreciate it. BTW, modifying the .bic file does modify your current game, at least in my unpatched version.

I had a little trouble trying to find a description of the changes in 1.21f. The search led me to a news page, but I still haven't found the Firaxis thread detailing the changes. I'll look again this weekend when I have a little time. I think I'll download the newest patch and give it a whirl. If I don't like it, I can always re-install the original.

Again, thanks for the help. This forum is a lot more friendly than the other few boards I frequent. Maybe the difference is that the other boards are sports oriented. Lots of competition there. vbg

	18-07-2002 04:39									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

1.07 has too many bugs, I guess you havent noticed that your fighters dont work. Install 1.29 on friday. The game has progessively improved through each patch. This one will include a few tweaks and an improved editor that we dont have to hack (so much). Practice your skills and prepare for PtW (human players).

Time to change my flag..

	18-07-2002 08:58									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by wisdave modifying the .bic file does modify your current game, at least in my unpatched version.

I just asked this question to the general forum directly. It looks like 1.21f changed it so that civ3mod.bic changes only affect new games. Here's the thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=56141

Not sure what will happen to your changes once you patch.

quote: I had a little trouble trying to find a description of the changes in 1.21f. The search led me to a news page, but I still haven't found the Firaxis thread detailing the changes.

http://www.civ3.com/patches.cfm

	18-07-2002 11:42									#11
	Re: Questions from a newbie - long Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by wisdave 2. What other types of changes have you made that made your games more enjoyable? I was afraid to change units, wonders, terrain, etc until I better understood what I was changing. The corruption model was pretty easy to see right away.

One thing you can do that will really liven up your game is add a land unit with a hidden nationality, like a land based Privateer. The AI uses them quite well, sometimes to well, and it makes things much more interesting when peace breaks out. It also gives you a tool in order to contain the AI expansion. This is something Firaxis is thinking of including in Play the World expansion.

There's a bit of a learning curve to adding units, but if you go to Creation and read up on the tutorial at the top, by Plutarck, it shouldn't take you to long to figure it out. And there's always someone willing to answer questions over there.

	18-07-2002 12:04									#12
	Re: Re: Questions from a newbie - long Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Willem There's a bit of a learning curve to adding units, but if you go to Creation and read up on the tutorial at the top, by Plutarck, it shouldn't take you to long to figure it out. And there's always someone willing to answer questions over there.

I suspect adding units will be easier after Friday. I was about to start reading the posts on adding units, but it looks like lots of new stuff regarding this will be in the 1.29 patch. I'd suggest waiting (at least I'm going to).

	18-07-2002 15:45									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I advise you not to increase the "Optimal number of cities" to a large value, even though you may fight corruption this way. The AI continues to build cities, until this number is nearly reached. Now imagine, on a large map 11 AIs try to build 100 cities each, which is impossible, since the maximal # of cities is 512. This results in LOTS of wandering settlers, the so called settler diarrhea, which some posters here *cough* remind us twice a day.

Better leave the value like it is, or increase it only slightly.

	18-07-2002 19:42									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sir Ralph is right about that. Plus, you are not allowed to build the Forbidden Palace until you have 1/2 of the optimal # of cities. Put the number too high, and you never get to build it.

If you're going to mod it, raise it just a bit and maybe add another Forbidden Palace-like small wonder... and lower the shield cost if you can (dunno, haven't messed with the editor much).

-Arrian

	18-07-2002 19:50									#15
	Re: Re: Re: Questions from a newbie - long Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by RedBird I suspect adding units will be easier after Friday. I was about to start reading the posts on adding units, but it looks like lots of new stuff regarding this will be in the 1.29 patch. I'd suggest waiting (at least I'm going to).

I suspect there's still going to be some things that have to be done manually, or through a program like MultiTool. I don't think they've really changed much, by the sounds of it. They're just revealing the Add/Delete buttons, everything else will probably be the same.

	18-07-2002 19:57									#16
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I advise you not to increase the "Optimal number of cities" to a large value, even though you may fight corruption this way. The AI continues to build cities, until this number is nearly reached. Now imagine, on a large map 11 AIs try to build 100 cities each, which is impossible, since the maximal # of cities is 512. This results in LOTS of wandering settlers, the so called settler diarrhea, which some posters here *cough* remind us twice a day. Better leave the value like it is, or increase it only slightly.

Good point. It's better to leave it as is and add "Reduces Corruption" to other improvements. The Temple would be a reasonable choice. And add another Forbidden Palace, or two, as was mentioned. One thing you can do to make things interesting is having a gov specific FP, so it will lose it's effect if you switch govs.

	18-07-2002 21:17									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I advise you not to increase the "Optimal number of cities" to a large value, even though you may fight corruption this way.

Maybe this should go in another thread (or if one already exists just point me there), but what happens when you exceed the "Optimal number of cities"? What happens to nearby cities, and what happens to far away ones? If far away cities are already crippled by corruption what harm would there be in adding more (if only for strategic reasons)?

	18-07-2002 21:36									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by RedBird Maybe this should go in another thread (or if one already exists just point me there), but what happens when you exceed the "Optimal number of cities"? What happens to nearby cities, and what happens to far away ones? If far away cities are already crippled by corruption what harm would there be in adding more (if only for strategic reasons)?

In my current game (large map, 7 civs), I was fortunate enough to discover an unsettled continent of fair size. I held back my world map from trade until I could build a ring of cities on its perimeter, and then began back filling. I managed to build, or culture flip, around 70 cities between that and my home continent. As I learned here, the editor was set for 24 as optimal for a large map.

The point at which I became completely frustrated with corruption was when improvements made absolutely no difference. No matter the production rate or the currency rate, the net effect of an improvement was zero. For instance, if a city was making 20 currency, corruption would take 19. By adding a bank, currency would increase to 30, but corruption would consume 29. That's when I came here for help.

I had never heard of the settler problem with a high optimal setting, so I will change that tonight. However, with the changes I made to the .bic file, I have science set at 30% and each advancement is coming in at 4 turns. Net profit on each turn is now at 1007 gold - I can rush buy about anything each turn. Now, to be fair, much of that income is from trading technologies around the horn to the other civs. Another lesson learned from you folks. But, corruption is now taking only about 200 gold per turn.

I never noticed any effect on nearby cities. The corruption was experienced on the ones far away.

	18-07-2002 22:05									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by wisdave I never noticed any effect on nearby cities. The corruption was experienced on the ones far away.

In my first or second game I was playing CivII style (keeping all captured cities, and building even more). At first I thought the corruption would just go away on its own...

Anyway, then I realized that nearby cities were hardly being penalized, and I had some space actually right next to my capital (it was mostly desert, but now that I'd had railroads it was viable ground). So I built a new city (Minot) right next to my capital (Washington). At this point I was probably at about double the Optimal Cities setting or maybe even more.

I had a third city (Philidelphia [one of the early cities]: close to the capital on the other side) producing, I think, a research center. Philidelphia had just enough production to build the research center. Next turn I realized Philidelphia had not produced the research center. I investigated, and found that it's own corruption had increased. I disbanded Minot, and the production for Philidelphia returned to normal.

So I'm pretty certain there are penalties for building too many cities. What I don't know is if I'd been getting these penalties all along, but hadn't noticed, or if they only started occurring once I'd passed some number of cities (maybe once, maybe twice the Optimal City setting, I don't know).

_

	18-07-2002 22:14									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yes, exceeding the optimal # of cities will increase corruption bit by bit... the Minot/Philly example illustrates it perfectly.

Distance corruption is the real killer, though. Which is why the Forbidden Palace is THE best wonder in the game. Instead of having one non-corrupt ring of cities, you can have 2. If geography allows it, you can have a very large, yet productive empire.

-Arrian

	18-07-2002 22:23									#21
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I just checked an old thread of mine with screenshots of one of my largest empires. Standard Map, Continents, 70% water. I counted approximately 60 cities, which is WAY over the "optimal" limit. Due to good Palace/FP location, however, my empire was a powerhouse... only 10 or so of those cities were totally corrupt (the majority of those were on different continents).

I find it's best to ignore the "number of cities" corrupt and focus on the distance corruption. Centering one's Palace and Forbidden properly, with rings of cities surrounding them, is the key to controlling corruption.

-Arrian

	18-07-2002 22:50									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Yes, exceeding the optimal # of cities will increase corruption bit by bit... the Minot/Philly example illustrates it perfectly.

When does this reason for corruption first appear? Do you get it all along, or as soon as you're [optimal+1], or at double the optimal, or at some other point?

	18-07-2002 23:06									#23
	Tired of ads?

Edit: Accidental double post.

This isn't the post you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move Along.

Last edited by RedBird on 19-07-2002 at 02:58

	18-07-2002 23:08									#24
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Arrian, I don't agree that the corruption due to distance is the only thing to worry about. I think the corruption due to number of cities is equally important.

Remember what a pain corruption was before they made courthouses and police stations increase the optimal number? The effect of courthouses on the distance corruption was never changed in a patch.

Also, the Forbidden Palace potentially doubles the optimal number of cities in your empire (if there is no overlap of productive cities with your Palace ring). That's why you see such a great reduction in corruption when you build it right.

If you go 1.5 times over the (modified) optimal number of cities, your corruption will be 95% no matter what the distance to the Palace. So number of cities clearly matters.

Taking your example, on a standard map, the optimal number of cities is 16. If a city has a courhouse and police station, the number increases to 32. If your FP is optimally placed, you get 64 cities within the "optimal". So your empire of 70 cities was not exactly "WAY" over the optimal.

RedBird: You get corruption due to number of cities after you build city number 2. But when you go over the (modified) optimal number, the rate of increase with number of cities doubles.

	18-07-2002 23:26									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by alexman If you go 1.5 times over the (modified) optimal number of cities, your corruption will be 95% no matter what the distance to the Palace. So number of cities clearly matters.

95% in new cities, and/or old cities, or distant cities?

quote: Originally posted by alexman RedBird: You get corruption due to number of cities after you build city number 2.

So each new city, even early in the game when you have only a handful of cities, increases the corruption of the already built cities?

_

	18-07-2002 23:32									#26
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quote: 95% in new cities, and/or old cities, or distant cities?

95% in cities whose rank in closeness to the capital or FP is more than 1.5 the modified optimal number.

quote: So each new city, even early in the game when you have only a handful of cities, increases the corruption of the already built cities?

Each new city increases the corruption of already built cities that are farther away from the capital.

More details about corruption here.

	18-07-2002 23:34									#27
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alexman,

Ah, I actually didn't understand the way courthouses/police stations worked, apparently. Interesting. Thanks for the info.

-Arrian

	19-07-2002 00:12									#28
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Each new city increases the corruption of already built cities that are farther away from the capital.

Yes, thank you!
.

	19-07-2002 02:05									#29
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quote: Originally posted by RedBird I got a failure when I posted the first time. The failure said to do a reload. I did, and it duplicated my message. I tried the "Delete Post" entry, but it gives me a permissions error even though I'm able to edit my own post. How do I delete this entry?

Just highlight everything, then type "Ooops"