18-07-2002 02:22									#1
	Foriegn Minister Report - 1450BC Increase the size of your Attachments

Not sure if the votes have ended or not, (tho I think it should be, it IS 2 days after the voting stops right?). But I thought I'd fit the part
<----

Anyway, I've just downloaded the current game. (it's so damn hard to find it, I mean, the fact it is hidden in some thread that gives you no clue that it might be in there just doesn't help, we really need a topped thread just for keeping the current game for ppl to download).



Anyway down to business, so I had a look at our current position (well my current position anyway), we seem to have a fairly good amount of knowledge on the map and I believe it would be worth quite a lot to other Civs now. I had a wee chat with each of the leaders to see how much money they have, knowledge, etc. And I strongly believe we can get map making, everyones world map and we'll only lose about 20 or less bucks. mind you, I have not played ahead! So I could be wrong, but I've done this a thousand times before, and I am 99% sure it will work.

Obviously I'll need to talk with Spiffor and maybe Civman2000 (there's only mapmaking to get so there's really not much desicion making there yet). Once we've sorted something out, we'll let the citizens know and we'll see how you all feel about it.

Remember, we get map making and everyones world/territory(possibly only the Germans will trade territory and not their world map), and it'll only cost us about 20 gold or less.

	18-07-2002 02:37									#2
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Sounds good

	18-07-2002 02:39									#3
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If you need my agreement for buying MapMaking for less than 211 gold, I give it gladly. After all, all this money must serve a purpose.
However, in my approaches of mapwhoring, I couldn't get all world maps without selling our own. And many people disagree with selling our map.

	18-07-2002 02:46									#4
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got mine too

	18-07-2002 02:57									#5
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I think we could sell our own map if it helps us to get all the other maps because knowledge the world is very important in my opinion, and we should sell it before other civs explore our territory, because that would make it worthless.

But if too many people disagree with that...


(I hope you can understand my english )

	18-07-2002 03:02									#6
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Wait no i dont approve i just found a better deal for mapmaking: for only 195 from france!

I didnt look at every single civ though, there may be even better deals out there!

	18-07-2002 03:05									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Schee I think we could sell our own map if it helps us to get all the other maps because knowledge the world is very important in my opinion, and we should sell it before other civs explore our territory, because that would make it worthless. But if too many people disagree with that... (I hope you can understand my english )

i disagree

	18-07-2002 03:07									#8
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Buy Mapmaking from French for 150g and World Map.
Buy Territory Map from Romans for whatever they want. (Probably World Map)
Buy Territory Map from Greece for whatever they want. (Probably World Map)
Buy Territory Map from US for whatever they want. (Probably World Map)
Buy World Map from Aztecs for whatever they want. (Probably Mathematics)
Buy World Map from Iroquoi for whatever they want. (Probably Mathematics)
Buy World Map from English for whatever they want. (Probably World Map)
Buy World Map from Russians for whatever they want. (Not sure)
Buy World Map from Babylonians for whatever they want. (Not sure)

Sell World Map to Germans for as much as they will buy it for. (They have 72G)
Sell World Map to Romans for as much as they will buy it for. (They have 162G)
Sell World Map to English for as much as they have. (2g)
Sell World Map to US for as much as they have. (They have 66G)
Sell World Map to French for as much as they have. (1g)
Sell World Map to Russians for as much as they have. (1g)



So in summary, we started with 237, and with it we bought Mapmaking for 150. So we're down to 87G.
By buying the world maps and territory maps we've made our maps the most valuable to all civs. So they're
going to pay a lot of money for it. I doubt the romans are going to pay all 162, (maybe around 50-60 for it).
Germans will probably pay all of their money (72G) for it and so will the US, so if we assume the romans pay 50G
and we add them all up we get 192G plus our 87 that brings us to 279G, and out of it we got Mapmaking and basically
everyones map. If you're worried about giving tech and world maps out to everyone, just remember that it's only a
matter of time before the civs start trading it themselves and we miss out. And we must do all of this on the same turn.

Again this is coming from good experience, I do this all the time at the beginning of the game, I am 99% sure we will benefit strongly from this, but again my caculations probably aren't perfect, but they will be damn close, I am sure of that.

Thoughts?

Last edited by Sn00py on 18-07-2002 at 04:03

	18-07-2002 03:10									#9
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Civman, why are you getting 195 from France and I am getting 150 from France? odd. I hope I am playing the correct game. 1450BC right?

	18-07-2002 03:10									#10
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Uber. re the Isle.

Since the tiles are darked, would the AI "see" the whale and the coast? Are we benefiting from a little human ingenuity and a glitch in the borders of unexplored territory?

I agree with you though, seeing a French gally go by and pink borders showing up across the straights would suck.

	18-07-2002 03:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Uber. re the Isle. Since the tiles are darked, would the AI "see" the whale and the coast? Are we benefiting from a little human ingenuity and a glitch in the borders of unexplored territory? I agree with you though, seeing a French gally go by and pink borders showing up across the straights would suck.

possibly. hell, i dont know what soren coded

	18-07-2002 03:13									#12
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quote: If you're worried about giving tech and world maps out to everyone, just remember that it's only a matter of time before the civs start trading it themselves and we miss out.

Exactly what I thought !

I completely agree with you Sn00py (I voted for the good one )

	18-07-2002 03:20									#13
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think i'm using 1450 ...i went to the tuesday turnthread page and downloaded the save on page 3...

	18-07-2002 03:24									#14
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Sn00py : we probably don't have the same save : how could you buy mapmaking for 150 gold from France ? France is the cheapest seller, and sells it for 195 AFAIK.
I also estimate other Civs won't buy our world map for more than 30 gold : if you look at the difference of price when you offer your world map and gold in a deal, and then offer only gold, you'll notice that the AI doesn't demand much gold in compensation. this proves it values our map poorly
(more precisely, the Greeks would sell us MapMaking for our map + 168 gold, or for 210 gold. The Greeks evaluate our map to be 32 gold worth)

Last edited by Spiffor on 18-07-2002 at 03:30

	18-07-2002 03:29									#15
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COnfirmed: I have 1450. You must have an old save

	18-07-2002 03:46									#16
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I am glad to see our bargaining team at work. Just let me reitterate my opposition to giving out our world map. Any deals without it are acceptable to me, but ones with it are discouraged. I really don't want to see persian and french and maybe iriqouis ships moving to Uberland. However lets take this a step at a time, since all of ya'll(and the whole nation mostly) agree with getting mapmaking for 195 from french lets start with that. Then lest all discuss the next step.
Respectfully and hopefully
Aggie

	18-07-2002 03:46									#17
	Tired of ads?

But I have 1450 too and I got it from that turnthread forum.

Btw Spiffor, at the MOMENT our maps will not sell well, but after we have bought everyone elses maps, our maps will sell a lot higher, trust me.

How much will Mapmaking cost if we give the french 150 and world map?

	18-07-2002 04:00									#18
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ok my fault, you can get mapmaking for 150 gold and world map.

I'll edit the plan above.

	18-07-2002 05:04									#19
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how much of a threat is it to us if we sell our world map considering most of our unoccupied space is JUNGLE?

I bet it'll be more useful to us to find out what other good lands exists out there. But if we should get a map that shows us a great spot for expansion (or a super patch of resources) that the nation we got it from isn't going to be able to exploit soon, and if we don't want someone else (say, a powerful but exploration-lazy neighbour) to know about that either, then we'd best rethink. So I say, why don't we take it one step at a time?

We don't need to do an entire map-whoring project at once. And since it need not take place in a turnchat, we can take our time with it, debating each step without missing a turn, right?

	18-07-2002 06:26									#20
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The problem is that we want Uber Isle for ourselves

	18-07-2002 06:36									#21
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as nye asked, would AI's know about uberland? they can't actually see a land tile... (neither can we but we're humans, we can make such inferences)

I don't think we need to worry about uberisle. I say we carve out enough territory on our OWN continent and defend it well enough to provide us with security and prosperity. Crossing water is just a lot of hassle and plenty of corruption, too much trouble at this stage of our nation's development.

	18-07-2002 07:18									#22
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Don't want to threadjack here, but I can't resist injecting the observation that it's great seeing the seals in the avatars. Very sharp, SnOOp.

On the main subject at hand, I too was initially wary about exposing the land across the channel to other civs. But Captain has a great point: we have a major project ahead of us. War on our own continent is a huge risk, without victory our situation will probably be unrecoverable, and we must be ready to throw everything into it. If the map project improves the likelihood of success (for instance, by opening geographic access to France, Greece, etc), maybe we have no choice.

	18-07-2002 08:31									#23
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If I understand the current war plan right, we capture all but one of the American cities, which means we'll likely destroy most of their units, too. In short, America will likely give us anything for peace.

So, why not just wait and get mapmaking from them later? If the AI mapwhores quickly as some people say, we'll likely get a fairly complete map as well.

Or is the AI unwilling to give up very valuable things like large maps even when confronted with destruction?

	18-07-2002 08:54									#24
	Got spare money?

I think I agree with Snoopy's plan, unless a better one comes along.
But then again who am I to advise, being a scientist in the Thinker's Guild and all?

	18-07-2002 11:15									#25
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I have given you a decisive option, there are faults with it, like people knowing all the maps, etc.

But here is one more factor to remember, by the end of all the trading, only one civ will have a bit of money and that's the Romans.

And remember, if we don't do this soon, we'll miss the chance later because most of the civs would have already traded their world maps with each other and wouldn't give a rats arse about ours. Our knowledge of the world would be worth very little.

We do this in the next few turns, or we risk not being able to do it later (and I don't think it will be that far before they start trading).


About Uberland, I'm not sure if civs actually sail across the ocean for more land when there is still tonnes of land left to take on their current land. But it seems the only civ next to water that would bother to go there are the French? And the Persians. And what chance do they have compared to how close we are to it?

We buy mapmaking for 195, we lose all that money and only get mapmaking. We do it the way I have planned it, we gain more money, we get everyones world map and mapmaking.

Unless anyone can come up with anything else?

	18-07-2002 11:18									#26
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No. Dont ever sell the map.

As this gives a little too much information of us to the rivals I think it's best not to sell our map and just buy the maps from other ppl.

And as the AI already knows the entire map why give them the reason to use the information of our terretories. This IMHO leads only to the point where we are surrounded by enemy cities in the Notylopa junge.

And I think we could use the money on establishing embassies (with the most powerful civies), if we dont have them already.

	18-07-2002 11:25									#27
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Good thinking snoopy. I think you ideas is the best chance we have so far.

	18-07-2002 15:05									#28
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quote: If I understand the current war plan right, we capture all but one of the American cities, which means we'll likely destroy most of their units, too. In short, America will likely give us anything for peace. So, why not just wait and get mapmaking from them later? If the AI mapwhores quickly as some people say, we'll likely get a fairly complete map as well.

This was my thinking as well. Can anyone comment why this is not a good idea, please.

	18-07-2002 15:58									#29
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I say do it.
Information is the key to success.
There is a limit to what we can sue for peace from the americans.
From what I gather the cheating AI knows the map anyway and I'm willing to bet has already explored the island/new land.

I would welcome a French galley moving to the isle as they would be readily prepared to give it up when we start beating them down.

	18-07-2002 17:29									#30
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Q: Whether or not we sell our map, should we sell mapmaking to the other civs that don't have it?