21-07-2002 13:10									#61
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What is the point, nye? If we are only going to find out who voted, and do nothing about it, why know? I understand your point, but my question would still be: why?

And my solution was to only show how many non citizens voted for whom, not mention specific names as to voting, nor include citizens in the total. You won't be able to determine if gremlins were in there without knowing how many non citizens voted for Trip and Ninot. I am not personally for noncitizens voting myself, Your way doesn't tell you how the election would have went had the noncitizen votes been disallowed. Like I said, I support the President. A number of people don't because of this issue.

We could still get a list of all that voted that doesn't list the actual votes.

I never mentioned showing citizen votes, just the total of noncitizen votes (not by name, but total). What we would get would be the actual results of the election.

	21-07-2002 13:46									#62
	Got spare money?

The point kring, is that we can all see for ourselves who voted, we can all look into who they are, and we can all reach more informed opinions about what we should do regarding the issue of non citizens voting.

	21-07-2002 14:05									#63
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I got your point earlier.
Though, how you would be able to reach more informed opinion about what we should do regarding the issue of non citizens voting without knowing how, or even if, they affected that vote, is questionable. The current consensus seems to be to only allow citizens to vote.

What will happen if you show a large number of noncitizens voting (which appears to be the case based on other posts, maybe as high as 35-40) in this election is that those citizens that are already troubled by it will be more troubled, and the lunatic fringe will cite this as a reason to not support the current president. A bad example, maybe good depending upon point of view, is the US Presidential election of 2000. Some diehards even know dispute President Bush's claim to office (almost 2 years later) even though a large number of recounts by pro Democratic organizations still show he would have won. It was interesting that even recounting the whole state, which would have been the only fair thing to do still yielded him winner. The results of this election has left bad feelings among many who felt their candidate was cheated. The reason I bring up this hot potato is simple. I expect the same thing to happen here if the results are released.

Like I said earlier, I am all for someone putting up an amendment to only allow citizen voting.

I just see this as opening up a can of worms that will make things worse.
My point is that by knowing the number of votes that noncitizens cast for each candidate, you may be able to better make a case for only citizens voting.

If you can show me how only knowing who the noncitizens are, which then could lead you to knowing when they joined if you want to spend time looking it up, will ease the situation, I am willing to listen.

I stick by my point, which is, unless you know the number of noncitizens (not who each one voted for, only total noncitizen votes) that voted for each candidate, you don't know how big a deal this really is.

We don't know if the noncitizens altered the outcome of the election; and won't unless we have the abovementioned numbers.

	21-07-2002 14:14									#64
	Put an end to popups!

You're right kring. If you want to call Ninot's leadership into question, continue pressing for a whom voted for whom break down. Is that what you want?

In the mean time, over 60% of the voters in this poll want to see a list of the voters sans who they voted for. Are you telling us we're all idiots because you don't see the point?

	21-07-2002 14:40									#65
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"You're right kring. If you want to call Ninot's leadership into question, continue pressing for a whom voted for whom break down. Is that what you want?"

I haven't asked for a whom voted for whom, that would be showing individual names. I recommended only total noncitizen votes. How do you think people will react if they see a lot of noncitizens voted? That has been my point all along. This poll, if it passes will do just what you are asking if I want. I don't want that, as I have said repeatedly. Unless I messed up in my vote, I voted for Ninot.

"In the mean time, over 60% of the voters in this poll want to see a list of the voters sans who they voted for. Are you telling us we're all idiots because you don't see the point?"

I have said repeatedly I have seen the point because I do. I see the point quite clearly. Based on your earlier comments, you want to know who voted, how many noncitizens voted, when they joined Apolyton (correct me if I am wrong on this one), and for the citizens, how recently they joined. What point am I missing? The reason for this being: "we can all reach more informed opinions about what we should do regarding the issue of non citizens voting." Yet, when I asked: "If you can show me how only knowing who the noncitizens are, which then could lead you to knowing when they joined if you want to spend time looking it up, will ease the situation, I am willing to listen." I got no response to that question.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I have been respectful towards you, and would ask the same in return. And no, I am not crazy.

Last edited by kring on 21-07-2002 at 14:52

	21-07-2002 14:52									#66
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We already know that 30 to 40 non citizens voted kring.

Anybody can look up who is who, where they post, and how long they have been around.

	21-07-2002 15:06									#67
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Personally, I would like to see the whole mess over and done with.

Hopefully, Mark or someone will tie voting here to citizenship. 32 noncitizens with 10 citizens joining after the poll started. This according to Spiffor's post:

Originally posted by MarkG
out of 127 voters, 10 registered after the start of the poll. from that, no traces of DL were found, except from one account linked to one candidate but we currently think it's a friend or something like that. no IP match was found

what should be more disturbing is that only 95 of the voters have signed-up on official join thread

eitherway, there are no signs of someone fixing the vote. i'm now looking into a system connecting the democracy games registration process with voting


I don't think I said this, maybe I did, but it is 5 AM here now, I don't think the noncitizens voting made a difference overall in the results of the race, this based on MarkG's comment above and faith in humanity. I trust Trip and Ninot to be honorable people.

I know about looking people up. I rarely do it, except when I am trying to find a post about something, and I want to link to it or respond to it.

Well, good night, nye and any one else on this early (based on my time zone ). As noted above, it is after 5 AM here, and I could use sleep.

	21-07-2002 18:27									#68
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Damnit I want the truth! (And I can handle it )

Donīt be so scared of it! Wanting the truth if the reason to vote yes, so donīt say that it does not exist!

	21-07-2002 21:09									#69
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What truth do you want? The truth is that 32 noncitizens voted, and an additional 10 people voted that weren't citizens when the poll started. And I have yet to hear how knowing who voted will do anything positive, esp. since how they (the noncitizens) voted won't be known. The unintended results of releasing the names will become self evident when it happens.

I am not scared of the truth. The truth shall set you free. I am curious as to what truth you are referring to that hasn't been revealed yet?

	22-07-2002 13:14									#70
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so you only want WHO voted, NOT WHAT each vote was?

	22-07-2002 13:24									#71
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Yes, please.

	23-07-2002 00:37									#72
	Suffering from ads?

Yeah, thats what we want, we dont want persecute people who dont vote the way we want them too