18-07-2002 22:49									#31
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There is no reason to vote yes.

I have already, along with a number of people, stated a number of valid reasons to vote no. Timeline makes a great point.

	18-07-2002 23:00									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I am afraid this is not true ; I know at least one democracy where the list of all voters, indicating whether they have voted or no, can be consulted by anybody after the vote. This is required for further controls by any individual or political party interested.

You are correct. Hasn't anyone seen the Simpson's episode where they look at the voters and see that dead people, even pets, voted? Now, this isn't my argument, but showing the list will help reveal if anyone ineligible voted. And were this Australia, it would be like puting out a list of people alive and over legal age.

Now don't say "But this isn't Australia, so your point is moot," because this isn't ANY country. We get to make our own rules, so this isn't going against any "secret ballot" rule: we have none. There is nothing saying that the votes cast by citizens are secret. And since it is thought that non-citizens voted, we should see who actually voted.

And, as is usual with most of my rants and speaches, I ask you kindly to please ignore my blithering.

	18-07-2002 23:01									#33
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No. There is little point and my favorite Greek terrorist has better things to do.

	18-07-2002 23:07									#34
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I have no problem with an election commission review.

On your other point, as you pointed out, there are few rules, none of which includes who can/cannot vote in the elections. Which is weird considering the point was made before the game started, but I digress.

The expectation was a secret ballot. As noted, I said in a true democracy, which there aren't many. America is not a true democracy BTW. It is a mix of Republic/Democracy/headed towards Natl. Socialism.

Edit 2:

A point I made earlier that has been missed is the requests to state your vote after you vote. This has been made mention of in several different threads. State your vote. If we are going to do that, then what is the point of adding a poll. As I have noted, this will drive away more voters as well.

But since the comments have been brought up in several places, let's make an official poll:

Require people state how they voted in all future polls? Or Run Polls by the response people give in their posts (no polls needed)?

Yes/No/Abstain.

I am not being sarcastic. Since this is a democracy, if most people want it this way, let's do it this way. In which case, the list would be needed showing who voted and how. If most people don't, then let's not ask them to.

Last edited by kring on 18-07-2002 at 23:20

	18-07-2002 23:24									#35
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I voted yes.

I would very much like to know how many of the non citizens were completely new to Apolyton, and how many were older members who perhaps thought it was a good joke to have the election tied for 3 days.

	18-07-2002 23:24									#36
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I voted Yes. The list will be made public and the ballots not.

	18-07-2002 23:26									#37
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Heh.

True the US is not a true Democracy, it is a Democratic Republic, but niether is what we have here a true Democracy. Seeing WHO voted, but not WHAT they voted would preserve the secret nature of the ballot, but to what end would it serve? I think that if we start closing the polls to certain people, we would create less interest and less participation.

	18-07-2002 23:31									#38
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I think we must close the polls to non members. A minimum of effort should be required. Simply post "join" in the proper thread.

Aside from that, we are having absolutely no problem with participation increasing between elections. Are you suggesting we print brochures...

"Visit Apolytonia, We Let You Vote!"

I agree, it would be good for tourism.

	18-07-2002 23:35									#39
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nye, IRL anyway, some people wait until the last minute to vote, for any number of reasons (some would apply here, some wouldn't; some that wouldn't apply IRL would apply here as well).

I would like to see the energy used here channel into making an amendment that addresses the issue of voting (deja vu): who can/can't, time limits for registering if any. That would be a more productive use of our time in the long run.

Something like this is a good starting point of discussion:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=56053 hope that worked.

	18-07-2002 23:54									#40
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quote: Originally posted by kring nye, IRL anyway, some people wait until the last minute to vote, for any number of reasons (some would apply here, some wouldn't; some that wouldn't apply IRL would apply here as well). I would like to see the energy used here channel into making an amendment that addresses the issue of voting (deja vu): who can/can't, time limits for registering if any. That would be a more productive use of our time in the long run. Something like this is a good starting point of discussion: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=56053 hope that worked.

I still see now reason to vote yes. We will find out who voted, of course, but why do we need that information? Only Markos needs it, he can tell us things. Or Ming.

	19-07-2002 06:12									#41
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I voted yea because it dosen't hurt the security of the ballot, and it does not, I repeat, DOES NOT set a president for releasing the voter names. I too would like to know how many non-citizens voted in this election.

	19-07-2002 09:41									#42
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By all means....

I would like to know whether non-citizens have been voting or not.

Mss

	19-07-2002 14:51									#43
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed By all means.... I would like to know whether non-citizens have been voting or not. Mss

Can't Markos just tell us how many non-citizens voted? Didn't he already?

	19-07-2002 15:39									#44
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Yes he has, but people want to know who voted. I concur with Tass and Kring that there is essentially no reason to reveal the list, but it does no damage either. As for the part about the next step being easier, well that might be true from an emotional point if view, but not neccessarilly from an intellectual standpoint. We will still have to make a conscious choice to make votes public. And, why should it discourage people from voting, because other people know that they are voting, don´t quite see the problem with that.

	19-07-2002 17:21									#45
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could we not just publish a list of citizens who voted? without what they voted? we could then have the mods subtract all non-citizen votes from the result to have the "cleaned" result.
also, we should put on hold membership for non-voters, thowing them out completely if they did not vote for 2 consecutive presidential elections.

	19-07-2002 18:33									#46
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Argh! The poll is asking for a publication of the names of all who voted in the poll - there is no way of telling who voted for whom. The whole point of the membership thread at the top is to get posters to post their handle publically, as joining the game. There is no privacy issue for those who have signed up already.

The only new info we will gain is how many non-members voted here, and then we can look at what sort of measures we need to install to ensure non-members don't swing elections again. We will know who to unleash the mods on if we have the problem again, if their names turn up again.

Why do some people have a problem with this?

You have to vote in OZ? That would suck. The only reason I have ever voted is from excessive peer pressure (I couldn't believe it at the time), and I felt obliged to throw my vote away. Here we just have to enrol - whether or not to vote is up to us.

	19-07-2002 21:06									#47
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Why has been explained a number of times already. But privacy is a big issue for some. Some people who don't vote would feel pressured to vote, and vote irresponsibly or just throw away their vote (as you mentioned). Of course, the side benefit would be that people that claim to have voted but didn't would now be exposed. On the privacy issue, I expected secret ballot when I joined, as did most others. The exception would be an election commission, which we don't have, to review such a situation as we currently have. I have no problem with an election commission review in the game. BUT, under current law, it does NOT say only citizens, so we can't disallow their votes. You (being any citizen) could call this election into challenge, disputing it.

The mods know WHO voted for WHOM, so it IS possible to find that out.

	20-07-2002 05:09									#48
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i am torn here, but think that just a list would be good, as long as who voted for you isnt revealed.

if any ministers didnt vote, man, i will feel sorry for them when they get 6 voted in their re-election (if they didnt provide a good reason that is)

	20-07-2002 05:41									#49
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I don't see a down side for any citizens, including ministers who didn't vote (they are citizens, it is their right to spoil a ballot by not voting at all).

Once again, this is for a list of who voted, NOT how they voted.

BTW, there is no law preventing the release of the voters list either. In most free societies, something is allowed unless specifically prohibited. Are we only allowed to do what the CoL tells us we can?

Furthermore, this is a vote by the people to address a situation not covered in the CoL's. That is the law around here, I believe.

	20-07-2002 16:04									#50
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quote: Originally posted by kring There is no reason to vote yes.

Actually there are many resons to vote yes and many resons not to vote no. If this list is released it should only show us who voted in the election, not who they voted for. This will allow us to see how many non-members voted and influenced the outcome, this will also help us decide on the best course of action for the next election, and prevent the disaster of this election happening again.

We need to approve this poll

	20-07-2002 17:13									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Will 5001 Actually there are many resons to vote yes and many resons not to vote no. If this list is released it should only show us who voted in the election, not who they voted for. This will allow us to see how many non-members voted and influenced the outcome,

Or, as an alternative, we could just ask "Markos....How many people voted that aren't citizens?"

quote: this will also help us decide on the best course of action for the next election, and prevent the disaster of this election happening again.

How would releasing the list help over just asking Mark how many non-citizens voted?

	20-07-2002 18:00									#52
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As long as we know how many non-citizens voted, then thats OK. We should also have an "abstain" option in the next elections because a situation may arise where there are only 1 or 2 candidates which nobody has any trust in, many might feel the the position is best left unfilled, so that is where the abstain option would come in. Presently we have only had this option in 1 candidate elections, I think this should be extended to cover all elections.

	20-07-2002 18:23									#53
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i voted yes because i think an online-democracy differs from "real" (traditional, dunno) democracies in these security issues and we have to deal with that.

	21-07-2002 01:54									#54
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I vote no for two reasons:

First, I beleve in the secret ballot. If the worry is that non members voted, someone give (he should have it) Markos the list of members, then markos could go over, tell us (without revealing names) if non-members voted and then we could go from there. BUt why Everyone should see the list is beyond me, even if there are doubt. How far can pranoi exist?

Second: I don't see the problem with "non-members voting". What qualifies as a member? MOst members do't go to turnchats, how many actually post? And how many of the people in this forum, lurking, are members? Many of those non-memer lurkes are just as 'qualified' to vote as mos of our citizens. I don't know if any non-members voted, and at the same time, i do't even see why that would matter or affect things. What about every other vote, or constitutional amendments? If non-member voting is an issue, don't we have to review EVERY SINGLE VOTE EVER TAKEN?

	21-07-2002 02:50									#55
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Just the fishy ones.

BTW. Mark has said that he is looking into connecting the citizen list with the ability to vote in this forum.

Given what he said about 'disturbing' in connection with non citizens voting, I am very interested in seeing a list of who voted.

The only way to clear the air is to reveal who voted without revealing whom they voted for.

	21-07-2002 04:52									#56
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Since our Code of Laws/Constitution doesn't prevent noncitizens from voting, how can we not count them? It seems to me someone told me "In most free societies, something is allowed unless specifically prohibited." Since this is the code we live by, we have not prohibited nonmembers from voting in our current CoL. Therefore, their votes count. And as pointed out, we would have to check ALL polls that have ever been held, if we were going to be fair.

	21-07-2002 05:05									#57
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Kring, the problem is you're comparing apples and oranges here. The problem with our situation is that it's more related to a situation where a bunch of people from another country came to the US and voted Bush in (who knows ), which is clearly illegal. It's not like people who aren't non-citizens are voting, it's like aliens are (so to speak).

	21-07-2002 06:56									#58
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Just the fishy ones. BTW. Mark has said that he is looking into connecting the citizen list with the ability to vote in this forum. Given what he said about 'disturbing' in connection with non citizens voting, I am very interested in seeing a list of who voted. The only way to clear the air is to reveal who voted without revealing whom they voted for.

to use some bad english.. this would be amazing good!

	21-07-2002 11:34									#59
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Trip, I respectfully disagree. I am not comparing apples and oranges. As I said in the post above, our laws don't specify who can/can't vote. I am all for an amendment to the people, to let the people decide, or if Markg will lock voting to citizenship, I would much prefer that, but until either one of those things happen, it can be successfully debated that non citizens can vote.

I typed this great thing up earlier and hit the exit on the wrong window, so I will try and recreate here.

Aren't we targeting the wrong question? If this is a typical site, then the mods, or Admins, can pull up the list of who voted for whom. The reason I bring this up is simple:

Have Mark or someone else tell us how many noncitizens voted for Trip and how many voted for Ninot. Subtract those numbers and that will give you the results of citizens voting for Trip and Ninot. Since Trip conceded based on the numbers in the poll, if the numbers show Trip would have won, then I have no problem tearing up his concession speech (figuratively speaking) and making him our President. If Ninot won, then maybe the people complaining about the election would then move on with their lives, hopefully.

I think we need to focus on how many noncitizens voted for each candidate instead of how many people voted. What are we going to do, if anything, with the information from the votes. After all, based on what I have read, noncitizens did vote, quite likely in large enough numbers. I personally have nothing against either candidate. Let's get this behind us, and move on.

	21-07-2002 12:51									#60
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kring, I admire your determination however...

Are you crazy? What could we possibly gain by having Mark post the votes cast by citizens (or non) except chaos? Right now we have a president. Even the ex president accepts him. There is no good to be gained by revealing whom voted for whom (or how many of which type).

As far as revealing a simple list of who voted... I and many other citizens feel this is a good idea. I for one am very curious to see which non citizens are relatively new to the site and which are not.

Let me put it bluntly, by allowing non citizens to vote (which we have done) we leave ourselves open to seven shades of chicanery. I would like to know who the non citizens were, and I would like to be able to determine for myself whether it is likely that gremlins were active in that presidential poll.