18-07-2002 12:56									#1
	The incomes of democrats and fundamentalists Increase Your PM Length

I found this interesting post at the german Civilization Webring Forum, author Atlan, where he compared the incomes of democrats and fundamentalists.
This is only for cities with a size upto 21!

Imagine: a well developped size 20 city, only grassland and roads

This brings a base production of 21 x 2 = 42 trade arrows to the democrat. He needs at least 10% lux - rest 90%= 38 trade arrows, which are converted to gold, respecting the city improvements (marketplace, bank, stock exchange). You must subtract the cost for a temple (1), a coliseum(4) and a cathedral(4).

A fundamentatlist (80%tax, 20%lux) can keep that city celebrating with 20% lux. So he has a base production of 42 trade arrows, too. It seems that there will remain only 34 trade arrows (80%) for the upkeep costs and tax. But instead of the upkeep costs for a temple, a coliseum and a cathedral (9) he gets a fat trade bonus with that amount (9), so he gets 42+9=51 trade arrows. And this will be totally converted to gold, cause there aren't any upkeek cost for the religious buildings in fundy.

	18-07-2002 14:52									#2
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Near - but not entirely true - the tithes are not received as trade arrows, but as raw gold prior to the MP, Bank & SM multipliers, which in the example above with maximised taxes makes no difference, but once there is a Science rate it does matter.

Another related factor is that the Science efforts of Trade and Eins are NOT diluted by the Fundy 50% penalty. This makes Xinning cities quite feasible under Fundy (except they can't celebrate which damages the income somewhat)

SG[1]

	18-07-2002 22:30									#3
	Remove this text

I noticed the thread title, which is interesting.

quote: Another related factor is that the Science efforts of Trade and Eins are NOT diluted by the Fundy 50% penalty. This makes Xinning cities quite feasible under Fundy (except they can't celebrate which damages the income somewhat)

Actually, a couple things.... Einsteins are indeed subject to the 50% Fundy penalty. The rounding is done after the accumulation. Hence, in a city with 80% tax, 0% sci, 20% Lux, and with one Einstein, you will get 2 beakers of output. With 2 Einsteins, you will get 3 beakers. Normally (e.g., not in Fundy), you would get 3 and 6, respectively (assuming no LB, UV, RL, CO, INC).

Fundy cities can celebrate, but they just do not enjoy the Republic/ Democratic benefit of one added pop (citizen) per turn (assuming at elast one excess food and the proper city improvements).

To me, the lack of celebration growth is a huge, major and totally overwhelming problem, unless the city (and empire) have pretty much grown to their potential.

In Fundy, I always allocate the luxuries for my SGC (Super Gold City) to celebrate. I normally don't build a SSC in Fundy (I normally don't use it if it is already completed). With Colossus, and trade caravan deliveries (whose science is not affected by Fundy at all), I typically expect Fundy to produce one advance per turn (every turn) starting about Steam Engine or so (at deity, 7 civs, large map), using one Einstein (2 beakers empire science output).

	18-07-2002 22:45									#4
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When most of your cities get to size 21, usually you'll have the tech to build superhighways. Instead of 42 raw trade arrows, you'll have 63. With 3 profitable trade routes the total trade will be 100+. With Marketplace, bank and stock exchange upgrade, the total trade is 250+.

Cost for maintaining content in DEM: 10% to luxury + maintainance cost for temple, cathedral and colliseum.
Cost for maintaining celebration in FUN: 10% to luxury (25) minus tilths from temple, cathedral and colliseum.

The difference is small.

If all city squares are grass then the city should grow to maximum potential (size 36). At size 36, a city can hire 16 specialists and make more money. Consider the growth potential DEM can set 20% to luxury to celebrate and grow. FUN needs one food caravan per turn to keep up with the growing pace of DEM, thus FUN will lose 16 turns of production before reaching size 36. Using these 16 turns DEM can produce 16 commodity caravans and make thousands of golds. That is the loss of FUN. (If FUN does not keep up with DEM's growth in population then DEM will get more income per turn by hiring specialists after reaching size 36). So the best choice for FUN now is to switch to DEM and grow to size 36, then switch back.

After reaching size 36, under DEM one can set 0% luxury and hire 4 entertainers (12 tax collectors) to maintain content (assume that happiness improvements take care of 10 people, then 4 entertainers will get 10 more people content). Under FUN one has to maintain 10% luxury to celebrate but can hire 14 tax collectors instead of 12. After considering maintainance and tilths, the equation is still a little bit in favor of FUN.

Another benifit for FUN is that its rush buying cost for units is smaller (can start with a 20 shield unit).

So overall FUN government will be richer than DEM ones. However in the growth period FUN government should switch to DEM temporarily.

	19-07-2002 00:26									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

SOL becomes very important. When growth starts to slow down, I switch to fundy, build up infrastructure(aqueducts, markets, harbours, etc), and gold. No unit support costs help speed this up. I then start the growth cycle again with democracy.

	19-07-2002 01:01									#6
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There is one possible way to gain fundy's benefit of being able to build 20 shield units (fanatics) even under DEM. If it works it will be a huge save during growth period. The prerequisite is that you have already got the fundamentalism tech (i.e., switching to fundy from SOL in early period does not give this benefit).

The plan is like this: when you are Democracy, if one of your cities is in riot for two consecutive turns you automatically get a revolution, however the SOL will let you select government at the same turn before moving your pieces. So if you let your first city support a lot of out-of-city units, it will keep on rioting. So at the beginning of each turn, you get a revolution when processing the first city (in sequence it will be the last to be processed), and then you can choose a government. Choose Fundy at this moment and you get to build fanatics, and you can rush buy start from here instead of more expensive units or improvements. Then at the end of your turn switch to DEM. Then next turn all but the first of your cities will enjoy DEM growth, then you can repeat.

(Just a theory. Haven't tried it myself.)

	19-07-2002 02:19									#7
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You must be having a slow day Xin

	19-07-2002 10:01									#8
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I know the problem that fundy civs don't grow by celebration, but:
Cities have a higher shield production than under Demo. So you can avoid the lacking growth by producing tons of settlers/engineer. Let one found a city, take some others to increase population to size 8.
Three size 8 cities are more worth than a size 24 city (more shields/ beakers).
Before joining the city let every settler build one road, so the city can take advantage from celebration. Rush build temples, aqueducts and marketplaces and perhaps libraries
Do this - city founding and settler joining - for 20-30 turns or more - and your pop will increase exponentially, especially when you switch back to demo. I agree, there must be enough space to expand, but that is a minor question.
This is a strategy for those who like to administrate and mange huge empires.
I often use this strategy when I'm technologically behind - (bad start position,bad luck with barbs in the beginning etc) .
Research is done by dips and spies (:love. With he money I earn I rush build city improvements to prepare Demo. It's a catapult effect : you fall behind in order to lead.
So the higher Fundy income has a strategical meaning for me.

	19-07-2002 11:48									#9
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quote: Originally posted by ramses II. I know the problem that fundy civs don't grow by celebration, but:

The object of establishing a fundy government is to grow your population by capturing enemy cities In the right circumstances the citizens of your empire will increase faster than in a democracy.

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SG(2)

	19-07-2002 15:40									#10
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My first aim establishing fundy is to make money for city improvements.
The second aim is to make money for bribing enemy cities.

	19-07-2002 20:30									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits The object of establishing a fundy government is to grow your population by capturing enemy cities In the right circumstances the citizens of your empire will increase faster than in a democracy. ---------------------- SG(2)

I have no problem capturing cities when I'm in Democracy so I wouldn't count that as an additional advantage.

RAH

	19-07-2002 20:52									#12
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quote: Originally posted by rah I have no problem capturing cities when I'm in Democracy so I wouldn't count that as an additional advantage. RAH

Sure...neither do I. But in Fundy there's no Senate. Could be an interesting succession game...world conquest in demo.

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SG(2)

	19-07-2002 22:38									#13
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With the UN, it's easy. Without it, it just takes a little longer

I would say 95% of my world conquest games were mostly in a democracy.

RAH

	19-07-2002 22:41									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu There is one possible way to gain fundy's benefit of being able to build 20 shield units (fanatics) even under DEM.

Check out my previous post. When doing the trick your city productions are in DEM but you act as FUN, which means you can back stab other civs without senate blocking your way and without getting reputation hit.

	19-07-2002 23:01									#15
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Nice twist Xin. Is it still a theory or have you tested it?

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SG(2)

	20-07-2002 00:04									#16
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, but if a city is in revolt for two turns, will it drop into anarchy at the beginning of the rotation or when it hits that city. Let us know after you test it, because I like the concept.

RAH

	20-07-2002 00:37									#17
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Strange things happened! It worked for all non-Oedo years. That is, if you kee a city revolt for two turns and the second turn is not an Oedo year then you get to choose Government immediately; but if you continue you will be in Anarchy when Oedo year hits you. After the Oedo year you get to choose immediately again. Which means, you can do it 3 out of 4 turns: start from a year before an Oedo year to let your first city become red, then on Oedo year it will revolt, and the next year you get FUN/DEM combo for 3 years; then it is again a year before the next Oedo year, you need to let this city back to normal and let your second city become red, then on Oedo year you let both the first and the second be red (your second city will go riot), then one year after you get auto-revolution from your second city while your first city is ready for triggering another auto-revolution. Now you can let your second city back to normal and use the first city (to save one city's production). Very painful process.

	20-07-2002 00:46									#18
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Xin - great stuff figuring that lot out so quickly. If you have the test file handy could you post it so we can all have a try.

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SG(2)

	20-07-2002 01:00									#19
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Here it is. Now it is 3950BC and the first city is already in riot. If you don't do anything for the city, the next turn you'll get production for your second city but not the first one, however as a compensation you get to choose FUNDY immediately and your second city will enjoy the previledge of can produce fanatics and can grow using WLTKD under DEM. Now if you change back to DEM the same turn and leave the first city in riot, the next turn (3850BC, which is an Oedo year) you cannot choose government (Anarchy!). You wait for one turn, then next turn you get to choose government again till the next Oedo year (3650BC).

Attachment: ca_b3950.sav
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	20-07-2002 01:06									#20
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Rah, as far as you are not in Anarchy this turn (either under a government or just be able to choose government type), the next turn you'll have all non-rioting cities' production at hand, until one city triggers your government to collapse (which only happens under DEM and REP), then all cities afterwards are non-productive.

	20-07-2002 02:22									#21
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Why do you want big cities in Fundy? To get money, you need a size 1 city with 0 trade. It is worth 4 gold if you have Mike. Just get Mike, sprawl as much as you like and look at your gold income. There is no point in maintaining cathedrals when you can build (or capture) the wonder, is there?

	20-07-2002 02:27									#22
	Remove this text

Thanks Xin...I'll have a play over the weekend

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SG(2)