19-07-2002 03:05									#1
	OFFICIAL: Should we now open embassies? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This poll is official, because I was authorized by the Foreign minister to open it, in result of the turnchat July 18th.

We have contact to 11 AI civs. 2 of them, France and America, are our immediate neighbors. Greece and Germany are a bit farther. Rome, The Aztecs, Iroquois, England, Russia, Babylon and Persia are very far. See the minimap below.

We have 363 gold and are making +9 per turn.

The question is, shall we begin to open embassies with AI civs now?

Prices are:

Rome	61 gold
Greece	43 gold
America	32 gold
Aztecs	63 gold
Iroquois	64 gold
France	35 gold
Germany	44 gold
England	47 gold
Russia	49 gold
Babylon	61 gold
Persia	43 gold

Options are:

Group 1 - Yes, start with the cheapest (nearest) and go on as long as we can afford it, but not America and France (our likely victims).
Group 1 - Yes, start with the cheapest (nearest) and go on as long as we can afford it, including America and France (our likely victims).
Group 1 - Yes, in any order, the foreign minister has the power to decide this.
Group 2 - No, don't spend money on embassies now.

I could have made this a multi-choice poll, but that would probably be only a clickfest and it would be hard to decide, which option won. Considering, that we anyway need embassies with everyone at some point, I think this approach should be the best.

If Group 1 (Yes) gets more votes than Group 2 (No), we will start to build embassies now, and the order is determined by the "Yes" option with the most votes.

If Group 2 (No) gets more votes than Group 1 (Yes), no embassies will be built for now.

This poll is open for 3 days.

Attachment: minimap.png
This has been downloaded 138 time(s).

	19-07-2002 03:30									#2
	Got spare money?

I can't vote (STUPID FREAKING GOD****ED MESSED UP...), so make it +1 for Group 2.

	19-07-2002 04:19									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I believe there is little to be gained from opening embassies at this point. Though if they get more expensive over time it could be worthwhile to get them early. Still I would hold off alittle bit. However I believe we should open an emabssy with america right before we attack so we see the strength of the defense in washington.
Aggie

	19-07-2002 07:47									#4
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Im not a big fan of embassies period, only really establish them for strategic perposes (like if the best path to an enemy is through a neighbor, I'll get a right of passage agreement and such), and I don't usually do this until much later when I have cavalry (my initial conquest are with Legions and then I usually dont need MPP or ROP agreements). So that'll be a no on any embassies, at this point.

Kman

	19-07-2002 07:59									#5
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I like Aggie's idea about getting a glimpse inside Washington right before we declare war
Otherwise, embassies seem like a luxury we can't really afford. Down the road, we might want to set up an embassy and close relations with Germany, and possible England or Persia, for possible alliances against the Aztecs. (I'm starting to get nightmares about swarms of jaguar warriors!)

	19-07-2002 08:03									#6
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No point in opening up embassies just yet. When we have some strategic need for it, then we can, but every gold coin is very valuable, especially since there is little room for error given our poor position.

	19-07-2002 08:06									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Time for a noob question: does opening embassies make it easier to detect when AI civs go to war against each other? How do you tell? Cause it's looking like we're going to have to be very opportunistic to survive.

	19-07-2002 08:07									#8
	Remove this text

I believe embassies keep relations from slipping. Will will eventually need embassies, the problem is we can't tell who with. What is certain: They will be going up in prices, a LOT.

Out of everyone to get an embassy with, I think we should get one with the Aztecs. They are going to be huge, and we can't stop that. We can save cash now, however.

	19-07-2002 09:43									#9
	Support Apolyton

Yes. currently we have no idea whos at war with who, but we saw persian archers mucking around in german territory.

embassies would tell us whos at war with who, but i perosally never use them unless were in a wonder race (check turns left).

and we're not builfing the pyramids (Germany, England, Peria) or the Oracle (Babylon), so i see no reason to establish them. i vote no.

	19-07-2002 11:21									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

Problem is : it's highly possible the Americans already have embassies, and use them to make alliances against us. Without embassies, it's impossible to us to make counter-alliances.

	19-07-2002 12:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron Time for a noob question: does opening embassies make it easier to detect when AI civs go to war against each other? How do you tell? Cause it's looking like we're going to have to be very opportunistic to survive.

The answer is yes. When you have an embassy, you can determine the state of peace and war of a civ in the Foreign minister screen (F4), by activating the particular civ. A blue connection line to another civ means peace, a red one war and none means no contact yet. Also, you see existing alliances and get notified about new ones by a popup window. Embassies are a good source of information and make a civs mood toward you better.

	19-07-2002 13:50									#12
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Group 1 - Yes, in any order, the foreign minister has the power to decide this.

	19-07-2002 14:07									#13
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If what Ralph says is true, then make SOME embassies with key (powerful) Civs. To see the relation between two civs, we only need an embassy in one of them...! Choosing the most powerful ones will positively affect their relationship towards us.

	19-07-2002 14:22									#14
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Opening embassies witht the most powerful civs, such as the Astecs. It would also be very beneficial to be able to see what the Americans have stationed inside Washington. So maybe building an embassy in America right before we invade would be a good idea.

	19-07-2002 15:18									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

i think we should open embassies with the persians and either the greeks or the germans, so we'll have two embassies
i think with two embassies we will still have enough gold

	19-07-2002 17:45									#16
	Remove this text

i doubt america has embassies. In my experience the ai doesnt build them until the early middle ages.

	20-07-2002 02:56									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We only need to build embassies if we are going to use them, so how will we use then right now, are they any use?

	20-07-2002 03:05									#18
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They last forever, so we might as well get at least a few. They'll probably be more expensive in the future.

	20-07-2002 03:26									#19
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Another argument for opening embassies now would be that we don't have any pressing need for our current hoard of gold: no techs we need to prosecute the coming war; no resources to buy; no massive upgrade projects on the near horizon....

	20-07-2002 04:31									#20
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by civman2000 They last forever, so we might as well get at least a few. They'll probably be more expensive in the future.

probably not. they get cheaper over time (IIRC), and the AI will build them on their own if you wait long enough.

	20-07-2002 04:47									#21
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uber/// "they get cheaper over time"??!?!

They get MORE expensive with every growth in population, and possibly culture, that the rival civilization has, and it never goes back down.

Right now every one of them cost less than 100$ Later on, all of them will be over $200

	20-07-2002 04:56									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

i never get them. the AI always gets them for me.

i figured as our empires connected (roads/harbors) they'd get cheaper.

guess im wrong :P

	20-07-2002 21:56									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

bump

	20-07-2002 23:00									#24
	Support Apolyton

I thought that you could see relations between nations regardless of whether or not you had an embassy.

	21-07-2002 00:03									#25
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No. Only their relations to you, but not between AIs.

	21-07-2002 01:22									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Oh. I always build embassies as soon as possible, so I didn't realize that.

	21-07-2002 07:27									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by civman2000 They last forever, so we might as well get at least a few. They'll probably be more expensive in the future.

They may be more expensive in the future, but I bet will be a hell of alot richer in the future too, so if that is the only justification for getting them, then I think we shant. As for getting them to see the defences of the capitol city, in my experience I am always so well prepared for war that regardless of what my enemies have defending their walls, those suckers are going down... too many times in the past i bit off more than i could chew, never will I make that same mistake again. In other words, I assure everyone, if we have enough units at the beginning of the invasion, then we won't need to spend our money on embassies. Once we get republic, it can go towards rushing units and structures - another perk of the Republic.

Kman

	21-07-2002 09:02									#28
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hmmm...yes build them with a few AI, not America though. As tempting as it would be to build one in Washington before the war to see what they have, is it really neccessary? We'll be declaring war anyways no matter what so I don't see the point of opening an embassy with America.

	21-07-2002 12:22									#29
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Problem is : it's highly possible the Americans already have embassies, and use them to make alliances against us. Without embassies, it's impossible to us to make counter-alliances.

I agree 100%. We need to be prepared to have alliances or counter-alliances when we attack.

Also, learning if other civs are at war would be beneficial to our cause, depending on what civs are fighting. It could make our task easier or harder.

	21-07-2002 18:27									#30
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Group 1: yes, in any order, etc. At least two embassies, we are going to war! And a dangerous and risky one, In the War Academy forums we can see how desperate our position are.

See http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=56234