21-07-2002 18:11									#1
	Galleys in ocean squares Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

A few weeks ago we were discussing the AI's tech avalanche and the role of AI galleys traversing the ocean in that avalanche. With Soren's help it was deduced that the civilopedia (that says caravels) was incorrect so that once magnestism is discovered even galleys can cross oceans.

This was not fixed in 1.29 (probably wasnt time). Since I dont want galleys crossing oceans I thought I'd look in the editor to see what could be done.

Galleys- sink in sea, sink in ocean

Caravels- sink in ocean

Galleons - traverse all waterways

Looks fine to me, a logical progression in naval abilities

The great lighthouse- Allows safe sea movement (for galleys) +1 movement.

A useful wonder on watery maps

Astonomy-allows TRADE over sea tiles
Navigation- allows TRADE over ocean tiles
Magnetism- allows TRADE over ocean tiles

Now I'm confused. Doesnt this mean that trade routes can be calculated over sea and ocean tiles rather than just coastal tiles? There is nothing to allow galleys to safely traverse the ocean unless the game coding associates TRADE with ABILITY to TRAVEL. As far as I can see there is nothing I can do to stop the AI from using galleys to traverse the "Atlantic Ocean".

Is this an oversight?

	21-07-2002 19:46									#2
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Well obviously the traders are using ships that are more sophisticated than galleys

	21-07-2002 20:07									#3
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There's now another method you can use to discourage Galleys from crossing Oceans. Increase the movement costs of both Sea and Ocean, I've gone with 2 for Sea, 3 for Ocean. Then when you get to Frigate etc, give the ships the "All Terrain as Roads" flag, and adjust their movement rate accordingly. So when calculating the shortest distance to a destination, Galleys etc, should rarely end up in an Ocean square.

	21-07-2002 21:09									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Willem There's now another method you can use to discourage Galleys from crossing Oceans. Increase the movement costs of both Sea and Ocean, I've gone with 2 for Sea, 3 for Ocean. Then when you get to Frigate etc, give the ships the "All Terrain as Roads" flag, and adjust their movement rate accordingly. So when calculating the shortest distance to a destination, Galleys etc, should rarely end up in an Ocean square.

Those changes would negate the sea-positive effects of the great lighthouse though, since it can only add +1 to movement.

	22-07-2002 02:50									#5
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Those changes would negate the sea-positive effects of the great lighthouse though, since it can only add +1 to movement.

So you wait until you can build a Caravel! It still won't affect your ability to establish trade routes over Sea squares, just the movement rate of your Galleys. It sounds a bit more realistic to me that way.

	22-07-2002 03:21									#6
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I think its a useful idea for me (since I dont play a naval expansionist game) but for those who do, the effects of great lighthouse are a key component in that strategy.

	22-07-2002 03:52									#7
	Re: Galleys in ocean squares Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH A few weeks ago we were discussing the AI's tech avalanche and the role of AI galleys traversing the ocean in that avalanche. With Soren's help it was deduced that the civilopedia (that says caravels) was incorrect so that once magnestism is discovered even galleys can cross oceans. . .

WHAT???

Are you telling me that it took nearly NINE MONTHS to discover such an important error?? Are you kidding?


BTW, anyone who says galleys could ever cross oceans is just making things up as they go along. It's crazy.

	22-07-2002 04:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle BTW, anyone who says galleys could ever cross oceans is just making things up as they go along. It's crazy.

The Viking Longboats were basically Galleys, even smaller maybe. Yet they made it to North America.

	22-07-2002 04:25									#9
	Re: Re: Re: Galleys in ocean squares Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Willem The Viking Longboats were basically Galleys, even smaller maybe. Yet they made it to North America.

they went up on the north route: known route until iceland and greenland, then past all those canadian tundra-islands to north america... so basicly coastal squares (except known parts)... and we don't know how many attempts had been done

	22-07-2002 04:45									#10
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What about the Polynesians? All they had was Outriggers, yet they colonized almost every habitable island in the South Pacific.

	22-07-2002 05:03									#11
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Good call, Willem.

Pre-Polynesians, this included Australia by 40,000BC.

(although that's pre-Civ, much less Mapmaking)

	22-07-2002 05:06									#12
	Re: Galleys in ocean squares Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH A few weeks ago we were discussing the AI's tech avalanche and the role of AI galleys traversing the ocean in that avalanche. With Soren's help it was deduced that the civilopedia (that says caravels) was incorrect so that once magnestism is discovered even galleys can cross oceans.

I thought navigation caused galleys to traverse ocean tiles?


Did I miss somthing?

	22-07-2002 05:56									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Good call, Willem. Pre-Polynesians, this included Australia by 40,000BC. (although that's pre-Civ, much less Mapmaking)

Not to mention Hawaii. They had to go across ocean to reach there, and their ships weren't nearly as sophisticated as Galleys, as they're portrayed in the game. They were little more than canoes with a sail.

	22-07-2002 06:02									#14
	Re: Re: Galleys in ocean squares Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Coracle WHAT??? Are you telling me that it took nearly NINE MONTHS to discover such an important error?? Are you kidding?

hmm, rather unfortunate

quote: BTW, anyone who says galleys could ever cross oceans is just making things up as they go along. It's crazy.

No, you just call it a game (sincere)

	22-07-2002 07:03									#15
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The Norse longships and even the polynesian canoes were not galleys, they were small sailing ships. Small doesnt mean not ocean-worthy. Galleys (at least the mediteranian ones) were never designed for ocean going travel but were better weapons than the sailing ships of the time (which is why I have a fire galley mod that is a fighting ship )

	22-07-2002 07:53									#16
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Is it that the Civilopedia is incorrect in stating that Galley's can cross oceans, or that it is right but the rule was missed in the actual game and Galleys can't but SHOULD be able to cross oceans? I'm confused by the wording...

	22-07-2002 09:04									#17
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@switchmoo: civilopedia.
that was a bad(stupid) mistake by Firaxis IMHO.

	22-07-2002 09:17									#18
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quote: Is it that the Civilopedia is incorrect in stating that Galley's can cross oceans, or that it is right but the rule was missed in the actual game and Galleys can't but SHOULD be able to cross oceans? I'm confused by the wording

Switch and Spencer

this is how i understand it to work...

any unit that sinks in seas will lose that liability upon the discovery of Astonomy and the same thing goes for any unit that sinks in oceans upon the discovery of Navigation or Magnetism, so once you discover Navigation not only will galleys not sink in ocean tiles neither will caravels, so while the Civilopedia is correct when it states that a galley will sink in sea or ocean squares it leaves out the fact that technological advances will eventually cancle this out

	22-07-2002 10:36									#19
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So it was INTENDED that galleys eventually cross oceans without fear? OK. That makes this topic seem clearer.....
I personally don't think galleys should be able to cross oceans, though, no matter the technology.....

	22-07-2002 16:24									#20
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I think that the game designers did intend for this to happen although it doesnt make sense to me or (apparently) to other players. The funny thing is that I dont think many of us realize this fact. I thought it was a game bug that lowered the odds of AI galleys sinking somehow. I'm not sure we would have found the answer without Sorens comment. This revelation also explains why my ironclads dont sink at sea either, even though I've marked them to do so.

In some regards this is just a civilopedia fix, but I would like to remove galleys traveling the oceans with the editor. Aside from Willems method, there doesnt appear to be a way to do so without firaxis (it could be a small additional patch . I guess I could add the TRADE OVER OCEAN to a later tech and remove it from Magetism and Navigation. On the other hand, now that we know about this, it may be less irritating to see galleys moving across the oceans.

Isnt it strange that Navigation and Magnestism have the same benefit ? Last minute changes eh ?

Last edited by SpencerH on 22-07-2002 at 17:57

	22-07-2002 17:13									#21
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I don´t know about you guys, but I always (well, at least for a long time) knew that all ships benefited from the Astronomy ans Magnetism advances. This was obvious when AI Galleys suddenly started to move over Sea/Ocean tiles. I´m sure there are threads about this is somebody would mind to do a search.

The fact which, IMHO, has confused people is that either Magnetism/Navigation is needed for Ocean trading/movement. People used to automatically believe that you really need Navigation, while it in reality is optional.

	22-07-2002 17:41									#22
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Isnt it strange that Navigation and Magnestism have the same benefit ? Last minute changes eh ?

IIRC, Navigation is an optional tech, and if you don't research it, your ships never would get ocean going. So they added the same benefit to a mandantory tech. If you don't research or buy Navigation, you still make your vessels ocean-going with Magnetism, but if you do, you'll have this bonus significantly earlier.

	22-07-2002 17:55									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Hurricane I don´t know about you guys, but I always (well, at least for a long time) knew that all ships benefited from the Astronomy ans Magnetism advances. This was obvious when AI Galleys suddenly started to move over Sea/Ocean tiles. I´m sure there are threads about this is somebody would mind to do a search. The fact which, IMHO, has confused people is that either Magnetism/Navigation is needed for Ocean trading/movement. People used to automatically believe that you really need Navigation, while it in reality is optional.

I'll bet you play a lot of games where naval exploration is a big factor. I dont play many of those games since I find the naval aspect of CIV3 to be "ho-hum" (unfortunately) so it was only when I played a GOTM that I noticed it and got pissed off about AI ocean going galleys. Since I upgrade my galleys ASAP to get sea-travel capability it never occured to me what was happening.

	22-07-2002 17:56									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph IIRC, Navigation is an optional tech, and if you don't research it, your ships never would get ocean going. So they added the same benefit to a mandantory tech. If you don't research or buy Navigation, you still make your vessels ocean-going with Magnetism, but if you do, you'll have this bonus significantly earlier.

A valid argument, but I wonder. Hopefully a firaxian will comment on the thread.

	22-07-2002 18:08									#25
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I'll bet you play a lot of games where naval exploration is a big factor.

True! Expansionist is my fav trait.

	22-07-2002 18:08									#26
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Yah, the reason for Galleys on Ocean squares has been known just about from the time the game was released. At first the Great Lighthouse allowed for it as well as Magnetism or Navigation.

here's a link to a reference of mine to the whole thing (self serving link) - Long post about halfway down.

I'm sure it was originally talked about in one of Vel's threads (non self serving), but I am kinda scared about trying to find anything specific in those huge threads. Or running into one of my first posts...

I think it's good that the AI can send their galleys out in the Ocean eventually. They have a terrible time figuring out how to upgrade or getting the cash together to do so. It helps the AI out, which it needs. Besides, it's easier to sink Galleys!

Also the units are rather abstract, in that there are no Galleys in the Modern Era, rather small, low capacity boats. Just like any Warriors at that time aren't actually cave men with axes...