22-07-2002 17:05									#1
	Hmm, maybe militaristic stinks after all (post patch) Tired of ads?

Or I am very unlucky. Which is it?

/rant on

In my first game as Romans I played up until 1400 fighting many wars on continent. Not ONE leader. On railroad now... still no leader.

2nd game Germans...all the way to middle of medieval no leader..after many wars.

Wow. Maybe Militaristic does stink. I am thinking I won't play them anymore.

SO that's pretty harsh eh?

/rant off

	22-07-2002 17:12									#2
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actually its also quick to get barracks up and be fight ing with elites in no time so its great for early war expansion. I don't know about leaders though It's maybe not that much better of a chance than normal.

	22-07-2002 17:15									#3
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for militaristic trait (i saw these stats somewhere)

chance of regular from conscript to regular: 100%
chance of regular from regular to veteran: 50%
chance of regular from veteran to elite: 25%
chance of elite unit creating leader: 12.5%

half for non-militaristic

so in avg. every eighth won battle with elite units should give you a leader... so you must have been quite unlucky... or fought mainly with veteran and regular units?

note: if you had a leader you oversaw by mistake and didn't "use" him (for army or hurrying) no new leader will be created...

	22-07-2002 20:30									#4
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i always have a stack of elites ready to go out fighting to make a leader, or just to make my empire larger! As you do!

	22-07-2002 20:41									#5
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf for militaristic trait (i saw these stats somewhere) chance of regular from conscript to regular: 100% chance of regular from regular to veteran: 50% chance of regular from veteran to elite: 25% chance of elite unit creating leader: 12.5% half for non-militaristic so in avg. every eighth won battle with elite units should give you a leader... so you must have been quite unlucky... or fought mainly with veteran and regular units?

You're right about everything there but the leader possibility... it's the same for militaristic civs as for standard civs. Only the chance of unit promotion is increased (according to Firaxis). So you're probably just unlucky, even though militaristic civs fight with more elite units they can still get screwed with no leaders.

	22-07-2002 22:06									#6
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GL generation is 1 in 16 or 1 in 12 with the Hero Epic, I thought i've seen these numbers a few times.

	22-07-2002 23:07									#7
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Artifex,

You're either unlucky or simply not using enough units. It is important to have lots of units and get lots of them to elite status.

Trust me, "militaristic" doesn't suck. But it took some practice before I learned how to use it properly.

-Arrian

	22-07-2002 23:12									#8
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Getting a leader can be a simple process if you do it right. Get at least 1 elite and send him out with other units. make sure the you have a reasonable chance to win the attack (dont go out with jaguar warriors and find some hoplites) and take it. if you think you're going to lose, use another unit to weaken them and then die. then send in the elite.

if you have barracks, you'll have a HOARDE of elite units fairly soon (if you fight a war like me i suppose), ready for making leaders left and right.

I usually play as the Aztecs when i want a lot of war, and i usually see 2-3 leaders before the ancient era ends.

	23-07-2002 01:11									#9
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Leader generation may be slightly smaller post patch, but still can be done. Key is to switch from attacking with elites first. Use regular or veterans to soften defender and then use elite. You are playing a numbers game and need to increase the number of elite victories. Other victories don't count. The other technique that works is to start with veterans by building barracks so it is easier to jump to elite. If start with regular, the unit has to make two jumps and that is not easy.

You only need to generate 1-3 leaders.

#1-- to build army
1.1 Use army to win one battle, make it an easy one.
1.2 Use win to build heroic epic
1.3 Use win to build military academy

#2..3-- for key techs.

If you get more than 3 leaders, you have a bonus game. Remember you can only have one leader active in the game at a time.

good luck, let us know how it goes.

--PF

	23-07-2002 04:41									#10
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The only time I was able to get a leader, was from a goody hut in the first iratation of the 1.17f patch. I always play as Rome and never get a single one. I wipped out entire civs and not one damn leader.


So what I do to fix this? I made a mod were goody huts can produce any unit except flying, sea, and UU.

	23-07-2002 04:47									#11
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I had about 10 in my last game (1.21), but I was
at war for many, many years

	23-07-2002 05:03									#12
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My record is 14 in one game. Then again, I've had entire games wherein I don't produce a single one. It's all odds. Sometimes your lucky, sometimes not.

	23-07-2002 05:17									#13
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Dude, I'm getting a leader EVERY TURN now. And I'd get more, except I can't use them fast enough! About every 10 or so combats, I pick up a leader. And I'm doing between 10 and 20 per turn.

I cannot imagine not getting them, they are almost a hassle now, except they also give the kickass renaming feature...

I wish I had them earlier in the game of course...

I also play as Rome. Dude it's RAINING MEN! Hallelujah!

Venger
P.S. Bonus points for song knowledge as always...

	23-07-2002 05:48									#14
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Venger, I worry about you... you can;t find better songs to quote?

How are you getting so many GLs? Are you fighting the mother of all wars (with MA against Pikes)?

	23-07-2002 06:02									#15
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I'm unlucky with leaders. I had 3 in my whole Civ3 experience. And even if I'm a builder, I have at least a major war per game, with all my troops being veteran.
Because of this, I consider leaders as a bonus for the AI, not for me

	23-07-2002 06:21									#16
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I find that the best leader generation times are in the early game and in the lateish game, when the AI attacks with a super-stack of infantry against your own super-stacked city.

Because elite upgrade is guaranteed the second time a veteran wins in a single turn, you get a lot of elites. Because infantry have such low attacks your elites then win a lot of battles. An AI super-stack attack seems to pratically guarantee a GL (altough you have to beat off the stack to get to keep the GL....)

So, iow, just because you failed to get a GL early in the game, don't lose heart, because industrial age pratically guarantees one if you can arrange for the AI to attack a city with an infantry superstack . Here it helps to have founded a single city on the AI landmass eons ago, because it's guaranteed to be attacked and can therefore be armed to the teeth without fear of the AI dodging it for an easier target.

	23-07-2002 06:31									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Venger, I worry about you... you can;t find better songs to quote? How are you getting so many GLs? Are you fighting the mother of all wars (with MA against Pikes)?

Once I hit the modern age and get tanks (I have 4 tank units - tank, improved tank, main battle tank, and modern armor), I get alot of elites, as well as when I get mobile infantry and mechanized infantry, lots of elites. I'm conquering the planet, so... lot's of battles. Again, at least 10-20 on every one of MY turns, more during the AI turns as well. So alot of elites plus alot of battles means one GL per turn. It's kinda cool. Actually, I like renaming the units almost more than the GL action (since wonders are pretty much over and done with).

Venger

	23-07-2002 07:31									#18
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The game is won or lost by modern age so leaders are kinda irrelevent then. I think they would be best on ancient and middle ages.

	23-07-2002 07:52									#19
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EXCUUUSE MEEE!
Venger, how's the flippin going as you are CONQUERING THE PLANET! If you are taking cities so quickly, you are probably not having much problem with enemy borders on cities you have taken only a turn or two ago!

	23-07-2002 18:57									#20
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I agree, Artifex. A leader generated in 1500bc is almost infinitely more powerful than a leader generated in the modern age.

My record is 12 leaders in one game (standard map). All pre-Tanks (the only use I had for the Tanks I built was killing barbarian warriors... heh).

-Arrian

	23-07-2002 22:02									#21
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My record was 10. In that game I accidentally achieved Domination victory. I didn't even research the Motorized Transportation.

My experience is that Great Leaders are essential in turning the game into your favor.

	24-07-2002 11:57									#22
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall Leader generation may be slightly smaller post patch, but still can be done.

Slightly smaller, indeed. My last pre-patch game I played the Germans and had so many GLs (particularly after Panzers...) I was eventually using 'em to rush cathedrals and whatnot.

However, post-patch I'm playing the Zulus (for a change) and not one GL yet, and I've nearly eliminated all the AI cities. I've been very conscious about using elites to kill the final defender to take cities and all the little tricks for generating GLs and I've gotten nothing for it.

True, it could be nothing more than a string of hard luck, but it'd be interesting to monitor just to see if it's something more....

	24-07-2002 13:37									#23
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For the record, you never get GLs from barbarians, right?

I rarely get them. I tend to build up my armies too much before I attack, and, since I save my elites for last, they rarely get used. This leads to erratic and difficult to control expansion into enemy territory. I need to learn to coordinate my wars with my production better. I suppose experience will do that.

	24-07-2002 15:41									#24
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quote: Originally posted by PeteBDawg For the record, you never get GLs from barbarians, right?

Right.

	24-07-2002 22:32									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Barchan True, it could be nothing more than a string of hard luck, but it'd be interesting to monitor just to see if it's something more....

Well, I've noticed that my elites normally lose a couple of hp (2 or 3) during the battle at which they produce a GL. Sometimes, I'm going NOOO because I think it's going to die, and then POOF!, all of a sudden out comes a GL.

That maybe something...

	24-07-2002 22:42									#26
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Yes I think your on to something. I notice that I never get great leaders in easy battles. Like a swordsman attacking a warrior out in the open. Then I notice if that same swordman loses 3 hp attacking a fortified phalanx in a city then poof out comes the GL..

	24-07-2002 23:06									#27
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Barchan,

I played a game as China last night and got 4 leaders (Pyramids, Great Library, FP, Hanging Gardens) in the ancient age (1.29)... though the game actually isn't going all that well. The problem is that India is a freakin' MONSTER. The tweak to commercial clearly helped. If and when I finish that game off (it was just a test), I will waste 'em with Riders.

Anyway, my point is that I don't think any changes were made to leader generation.

-Arrian

p.s. I love naming my elite* units

	25-07-2002 00:26									#28
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So far my record is two. It's in the game I'm currently playing as the Chinese (Militaristic and Industrious). I'm about 2/3 of the way through the Middle Ages. I never played too far into a game as a militaristic civ. I love the trait now. I have a great appreciation for Scientific, Militaristic, Industrious, and Religious. Commercial might be my next experiment. Expansionist is ok at best, I never seem to find very many goody huts. Are goody huts dependant on barbarian activity level or is that just barbarian camps?

	25-07-2002 02:31									#29
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Dunk,

You need lots of open space for expasionist to shine. Either use really big maps or normal maps with less than max civs if you want to test out the trait.

-Arrian

	25-07-2002 02:51									#30
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Artifex,

I am having the same experience during my experiment with Romans. I built a ton of veteran Legionaries (I always build barracks with militaristic civs since its so cheap) and whipped the French and Iriqois down to having one city left. I built AoW with my first and ONLY leader. I expected to get more GLs since I was playing a militaristic Civ and to no avail. I'm behind in the tech race (playing on Regent) and needed GLs to catch up on the GW races.

Frustration sets in as I ponder my bleak fate....

I need a GL NOW!! I am making a play to own my continent, which is the largest one and only have to rid myself of the English to do it. I have an exclusive fleet of elite Legionaries (from earlier conquests) and Cavalry (from my current exploits against English and their MPP Chinese friends). Since Rome is not industrious, i'm behind on infrastructure, and City Improvement infrastructure as well, since their so expensive. I'm attacking only with Elite units and winning everytime.... no GL. Only when I attack a pop-rushed riflemen will I send a veteran unit. They get promoted to Elite on the first or second attack, but no GL. What could I be doing wrong?

If I don't get some of these key GWs my late game will be interesting. As it is, i've had to buy most of my techs and now Civs are asking for my left nut just to keep up.

The Hawk scratches head and seriously considers bailing on his militaristic experiment and returning to the peaceful comfort of building and cultural dominance w/ Babs or Egypt...