23-07-2002 00:21									#31
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger You can't force your chemistry on me!

Good one, loin.


And I agree with Chegitz -- food is power, and one of the ways that Western nations can keep African nations powerless, is to control how much food is exported to Africa.

	23-07-2002 00:48									#32
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun And I agree with Chegitz -- food is power, and one of the ways that Western nations can keep African nations powerless, is to control how much food is exported to Africa.

If the West would live up to its creed and practice free trade with Africa, Africa would be exporting food to us. But instead of that the West spends over $300 billion US per year of agricultural subsidies*. This makes it uneconomical for many Africans to grow their own food because food imports are so cheap.

The West should remain true to capitalism: eliminate the agro subsidies and eliminate agro and textile tarrifs on African imports.


*And for those of you who think this money is helping out mom & pop, most of it goes to large corporations and other wealthy persons such as NBA player Scotty Pipen who recieved about $130,000 in farm handouts last year. Welfare reform for the wealthy and corporations now!!!

	23-07-2002 01:33									#33
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I was not correlating CFCs with that other compound so don't try to screw up my statements. I was just saying that could of been the cause for environmental degradation as well.

quote: Originally posted by MrFun And I agree with Chegitz -- food is power, and one of the ways that Western nations can keep African nations powerless, is to control how much food is exported to Africa.

Wrong. Corruption is the roadblock. As long as leftists remain ignorant about corruption and pour food into these countries it will end up to the 1% who control everything.

Carver, if food imports are cheap then why aren't African countries buying more? Boom. I just shot your argument down.

	23-07-2002 01:57									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Carver, if food imports are cheap then why aren't African countries buying more? Boom. I just shot your argument down.

From fao.org June 14, 2002 Rome:


"NEPAD identifies agriculture as a priority sector," Mr Mbeki, said. In 2000, Africa spent US$18.7 billion on food imports and received 2.8 million tonnes of food aid, more than 25 percent of the world total for that year.

According to FAO, the agricultural sector in Africa accounts for about 60 percent of the total labour force, 20 percent of total merchandise exports and 17 percent of the GDP. Because agriculture plays such a critical role in the African economy, developing a healthy agricultural sector is a precondition for further economic development.

"Until the incidence of hunger is brought down and the import bill reduced by raising the output of farm products, there is no way in which the high rates of economic growth to which NEPAD aspires can be attained," according to the FAO/NEPAD joint Comprehensive Africa Agriculture Development Programme (CAADP) report.


As you can see Africa spending $18.7 billion US on food imports every year is seriously crippling. Unfortunately, US leaders would rather dole out the 2.8 million tonnes of food aid than engage in free market reforms that would enable Africa to grow more, thus improving Africa's balance of trade and making the target of 7% growth per annum more feasable. America needs to practice what it preaches and trust the markets.

	23-07-2002 02:00									#35
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Oh they are? Then where is this food going to? The tinpot dictators of most of these countries and their ruling elite.

7% growth per annum is highly illogical. No way that will ever happen. Not with the corruption there now.

Mozambique is probably the only country to attain that and will be the only one.

	23-07-2002 02:12									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Oh they are? Then where is this food going to? The tinpot dictators of most of these countries and their ruling elite. 7% growth per annum is highly illogical. No way that will ever happen. Not with the corruption there now. Mozambique is probably the only country to attain that and will be the only one.

Fez, your brush, which is apparently wide enough to stretch from Dakar to Addis Ababa, is not being used wisely. To simply paint every African government as corrupt and paint corruption as the root of every problem is misleading to the point of being libelous. Is there corruption? ....sure. But the disparate terms of trade imposed on Africa by the West is clearly one of the continent's biggest problem.

I would do a rethink before calling the Obasanjo, Kufour, Wade, Mkapa and Mwanawasa governments (in Abuja, Accra, Dakar, Dodoma and Lusaka, respectively) corrupt.

And yes Mozambique's performance (now that South African commanded rebels have stoped blowing things up) has been very stong, 8% last year and the latest figures look like 15%. But it is hardly "illogical" for other nations to hit the 7% target. Tanzania, Ghana, Uganda and Botswana have been consistently strong performers.

	23-07-2002 02:17									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Fez, your brush, which is apparently wide enough to stretch from Dakar to Addis Ababa, is not being used wisely.

And I stand corrected, because there are the few governments that actually are not that corrupt.

quote: To simply paint every African government as corrupt and paint corruption as the root of every problem is misleading to the point of being libelous.

I didn't say every. I said most in Africa. The corruption is deep and any loans are misused.

quote: Is there corruption? ....sure. But the disparate terms of trade imposed on Africa by the West is clearly one of the continents biggest problem.

MASSIVE corruption in most countries throughout Africa. That is the biggest problem. Don't go blaming the west when the problem is infact in the governments in Africa themselves... well at least most of them.

quote: I would do a rethink before calling the Obasanjo, Kufour, Wade, Mkapa and Mwanawasa governments (in Abuja, Accra, Dakar, Dodoma and Lusaka, respectively) corrupt.

Obasanjo? Am I hearing right? His government is literally tainted with corruption.

quote: And yes Mozambique's performance (now that South African commanded rebels have stoped blowing things up) has been very stong, 8% last year and the latest figures look like 15%. But it is hardly "illogical" for other nations to hit the 7% target. Tanzania, Uganda and Botswana have been consistently strong performers.

Mozambique somehow developed a highly transparent government where corruption won't taint the economic picture. Tanzania, Uganda and Botswana... but what about all of the other nations? And those three you named have high aids infection rates which could cause massive implication to economic performance.

	23-07-2002 02:28									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Obasanjo? Am I hearing right? His government is literally tainted with corruption.

Nigeria certainly has a corruption problem, but not even Obasanjo's fiercest critics at home would say that Obasanjo himself is corrupt. In fact much of the ethno/religous strife in Nigeria is caused by people who want to cause trouble for his government and bring it down exactly because Obasanjo has cut off their corrupt gravy trains. I'll take an Obasanjo in every African capital any day.

	23-07-2002 02:30									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Nigeria certainly has a corruption problem, but not even Obasanjo's fiercest critics at home would say that Obasanjo himself is corrupt. In fact much of the ethno/religous strife in Nigeria is caused by people who want to cause trouble for his government and bring it down exactly because Obasanjo has cut off their corrupt gravy trains. I'll take an Obasanjo in every African capital any day.

He has lacked any economic initative in not taking his country off oil and towards better economic ventures like manufacturing.

	23-07-2002 02:40									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I was not correlating CFCs with that other compound so don't try to screw up my statements. I was just saying that could of been the cause for environmental degradation as well.

But we aren't talking about environmental degredation, Fez. Read the damned article before you make comments on it! We're talking about diminished rainfall. And CFCs don't harm the immediate environment, they destroy ozone, which is a different problem.

	23-07-2002 02:42									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara But we aren't talking about environmental degredation, Fez. Read the damned article before you make comments on it! We're talking about diminished rainfall. And CFCs don't harm the immediate environment, they destroy ozone, which is a different problem.

Destroying the ozone can cause drought pal. And why has the drought stopped? Countries like India and China are even more massively polluting than 15 or 25 years ago?

	23-07-2002 02:43									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Destroying the ozone can cause drought pal.

What the hell are you talking about? Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

	23-07-2002 02:43									#43
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Because the SO₂ pollution from China and India doesn't affect the North Atlantic, which you'd have learned IF YOU READ THE FRIGGAN' ARTICLE!!!!!!

Furthermore, while ozone destruction can cause diminshed plant growth, it does not cause drought.

	23-07-2002 02:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger What the hell are you talking about? Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

Well first off it allows more radiation from the sun to enter. So quite spewing out stuff because you obviously do not know.

	23-07-2002 02:52									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Well first off it allows more radiation from the sun to enter.

Increased radiation at the poles leads to drought at the equator? Interesting hypothesis...

	23-07-2002 02:54									#46
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Umm.... there are ozone holes over places other than the poles. Ha.

	23-07-2002 03:07									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Umm.... there are ozone holes over places other than the poles. Ha.

Again, where do you get this stuff? You're just making it up as you go along, aren't you?

CFC's cause ozone depletion by attaching to ice particles in the air, which is why the ozone "hole" is really only over Antarctica (which has the highest concentration of ice particles), with a much less severe "hole" over the Arctic. The ozone layer isn't a piece of swiss cheese, as you seem to believe.

If you want to be taken seriously, then read UNEP's report on the ozone layer. If you don't provide a link to the report, then I'll assume that you're talking out of your ass.

	23-07-2002 03:08									#48
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Instead of using big words you don't know and try to turn this into a pissing contest, ignore who you are talking to and accept the facts.

	23-07-2002 03:10									#49
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I've seen this phenomenon before -- the degeneration of Fez's illogical arguments.

	23-07-2002 03:12									#50
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I've seen this phenomenon before -- the degeneration of Fez's illogical arguments.

Would you stop with your ranting. Everybody that doesn't agree with you is illogical. NOW STOP WITH THESE ILLOGICAL STATEMENTS.

Stupid avatar, nobody takes me seriously anymore.

	23-07-2002 03:24									#51
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You'd make yourself look less like an arse if you'd just admit that your arguments in the last few posts were bullshit.

	23-07-2002 03:27									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Stupid avatar, nobody takes me seriously anymore.

To be honest, Fez, no one ever took you seriously to begin with. I'm not trying to be mean or insulting, that's just the way things are. You aren't taken seriously because of what you write and how you write it.

	23-07-2002 03:53									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Carver If the West would live up to its creed and practice free trade with Africa, Africa would be exporting food to us. But instead of that the West spends over $300 billion US per year of agricultural subsidies*. This makes it uneconomical for many Africans to grow their own food because food imports are so cheap.

You do realize that the shoe would be on the other foot should we eliminate farm subsides, yes? Not only that being dependent on a foreign country for food staples, particularly a country on an impoverished, AIDS laden, corrupt continent isn't going to sit well with most people. Nor would it be very wise in my humble opinion.

	23-07-2002 04:13									#54
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che, since you're blaming the 1st world for pollution problems, why don't you try shutting off your computer, your television? Stop riding in automobiles?

The problem I have with people like YOU is that you try to change everyone else's lifestyles but your own.

How about practicing what you preach?

	23-07-2002 04:17									#55
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quote: Originally posted by rmsharpe che, since you're blaming the 1st world for pollution problems, why don't you try shutting off your computer, your television? Stop riding in automobiles?

How is posting an article equivalent to "blaming the 1st world for pollution problems"? The article itself said that there are many contributing factors to the food shortage in Africa, so I don't see why everybody is getting their trousers in a twist over this.

	23-07-2002 04:21									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Instead of using big words you don't know...

"Antarctica" is a large continent down south.

	23-07-2002 04:25									#57
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger How is posting an article equivalent to "blaming the 1st world for pollution problems"? The article itself said that there are many contributing factors to the food shortage in Africa, so I don't see why everybody is getting their trousers in a twist over this.

Can you spell "oblivious?" It's clear that che was trying to use this as part of his anti-freedom crusades.

	23-07-2002 04:30									#58
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quote: Originally posted by rmsharpe Can you spell "oblivious?" It's clear that che was trying to use this as part of his anti-freedom crusades.

Indeed, he's done nothing but spout communist propaganda throughout this entire thread.

	23-07-2002 04:53									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Bas You'd make yourself look less like an arse if you'd just admit that your arguments in the last few posts were bullshit.

The arguments on African corruption were not bullshit. I don't know **** about science, so don't go there with me. I just give the political argument... trying to look smart. But I know a lot about geo-political crap taking place throughout the world including Africa. Maybe I should stick to my boundaries?

	23-07-2002 05:03									#60
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quote: Originally posted by rmsharpe Can you spell "oblivious?" It's clear that che was trying to use this as part of his anti-freedom crusades.

I have an anti-freedom crusade? More than one, apparently. I, apparently, am someone who is up to no good. I should be reported to the proper authorities.

So, rmsharpe, you seem to be another person who failed to read the article, as well as subsequent commentary.