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chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 19:15 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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African Famine MAY Be Caused By 1st World Pollution Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Study Links Pollution to Famine

Jul 22, 1:34 AM (ET)

By JOSEPH B. VERRENGIA

(AP)A new study says pollution from industrial nations was one of the possible causes of a devastating African famine that left 1.2 million people dead.

The starvation brought on by the 1970-85 drought stretched from Senegal to Ethiopia until rains finally returned. It produced images that haunted people across the world: skeletal mothers staring vacantly, children with bloated bellies lying in the sand, and vultures lurking nearby.

A group of scientists in Australia and Canada say the drought may have been triggered by tiny particles of sulfur dioxide from factories and power plants thousands of miles away in North America, Europe and Asia.

Researchers said the short-lived pollution particles, known as aerosols, didn't have to travel to Africa to harm the environment there. The particles were able to alter the physics of cloud formation miles away and reduce rainfall in Africa by as much as 50 percent, say the researchers, who used a computer to simulate the atmospheric conditions.

The process, known as teleconnection, continues in the atmosphere today. Some scientists suspect it might help explain the drought gripping parts of the United States, although that question has not been specifically examined.

And while pollution may affect the behavior of rain clouds, scientists stopped short of solely blaming industry's effluent for the famine and starvation that wracked the region of Africa called the Sahel.

"It's more subtle than that," said atmospheric scientist Leon Rotstayn, lead author of the study on the subject.

"The Sahelian drought may be due to a combination of natural variability and atmospheric aerosols," said Rotstayn, of the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization, a government research agency in Australia. The CSIRO study will be published in the August Journal of Climate.

Over the years, the disastrous lack of rainfall over the Sahel has been blamed on everything from overgrazing to El Nino. Many scientists still argue those are chief culprits.

One interesting clue: In the 1990s, rain returned to the Sahel. During the same period, emissions laws in the industrialized West reduced aerosol pollution. A coincidence? Scientists don't think so.

"Cleaner air in the future will mean greater rainfall in the region," Rotstayn said.

Some researchers say the CSIRO study is intriguing, but that the computer simulation is too simple to solve the mystery by itself.

"It is quite a plausible argument," said atmospheric scientist V. Ramanathan of Scripps Institute of Oceanography in La Jolla, Calif.

Last year, Ramanathan co-authored a global pollution study examining an industrial haze that covered nearly 4 million square miles and upset the water cycle over the Asian subcontinent.

He said similar processes appeared to be at work over the Sahel, but the CSIRO model must be sharpened to prove it.

Until then, "I would be cautious about overextending these conclusions," Ramanathan said.

Other scientists were even more guarded. Teleconnection is a reasonable, but complicated, explanation, they said.

"Rotstayn focuses on an indirect effect of aerosols that is really hard to quantify," said Philip Rasch, senior scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo.

Some scientists complained that the global rainfall pattern simulated by the computer model does not match up with actual rainfall observed at weather stations around the world during the drought. This lack of a neat correlation makes the study's Sahel conclusions "highly speculative," they said.

For example, the real weather observations and those generated by the computer model correspond for the Sahel, Senegal and parts of Brazil, said Yogesh Sud, senior research meteorologist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md.

"But in India and Australia, there is absolutely no match" between recorded rainfall and the simulated conditions, Sud said.

Nations share the same atmosphere and, increasingly, the same pollution.

Pollution is known to alter temperature and precipitation patterns near its source. Recent studies suggest that one country's pollution can become a problem for other countries, too.

Over the desolate North African Sahel, the influence of global pollution is less direct. Normally, this harsh land receives patchy summer rainfall. Soil studies show that milder droughts came in the 1680s, the 1750s, the mid-1800s and the early 20th century.

Rotstayn believes industrial smokestacks are the smoking guns for the more recent, more intense drought.

The sulfur dioxide pollution particles, which can remain in the air 5 to 20 days, probably drifted over the North Atlantic where they created more condensation nuclei for cloud formation, the scientists theorize.

The additional nuclei remained suspended in clouds rather than growing into fewer, larger droplets and falling as rain.

In addition, these clouds were brighter than normal, in part because of the added nuclei, and they reflected more of the Sun's energy into space.

This cooled the surface of the North Atlantic, which reduced the normal evaporation rate from the ocean and further hampered the moisture cycle.

South of the Sahel, the sea surface remained warm and evaporation increased so more rain fell to the south, Rotstayn said.

---

On the Net:

Leon Rotstayn: http://www.dar.csiro.au/profile/rotstayn.html

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 19:16
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Yeah, because it can't be the Africans or the leaders fault. To say that would be racist.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 19:27 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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What a clever and insightful remark, Stew. Your powers of observation and distilling a problem to its essential elements are amazing. Your ability to understand an argument without even reading the source material must make you the darling of your professors at the univeristy.

rah is offline rah
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 19:40
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The auther makes a claim at the beginning and then spends the rest of the entire article stating that the claim is not supportable by fact and is highly suspect.

Why did he bother to make the claim then?
Scare Journalism at best.

RAH

Faeelin is offline Faeelin
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Oct 2001
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 19:52
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Question: So why did the drought end?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 20:02 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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According to the hypothesis, the droughts ended around the same time that production of the suspect pollutants dropped.

Dan Severn is offline Dan Severn
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 20:13
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Aerosols may have had some effect on the weather.

More important factorrs in the hunger may be constant war, organized crime, startling population growth, outdated farming techniques, and rampant disease...


nahh...

Carver is offline Carver
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Severn
Aerosols may have had some effect on the weather.

More important factorrs in the hunger may be constant war, organized crime, startling population growth, outdated farming techniques, and rampant disease...


I wasn't going to even say anything but the notion that most of Africa is at constant war is as untrue as it is pervasive. Most of the nations of the Sahel have never had a war, civil or otherwise. Senegal and Niger never. Guinea was invaded by Portugal but the Euros were quickly defeated. Mali and Burkina Faso had a five day border skirmish, other than that... no war. Chad has had intermittent conflict but there's no food there anyway. The main Sahelian conflict zones have been Sudan and Ethiopia. Ethiopia's civil war has been over for about 10 years. Sudan is a mess and probably won't get much better until the National Islamic Front government in Khartoum falls.

As for "startling population growth", God said to multiply.

Lord Merciless is offline Lord Merciless
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Jul 2002
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 20:49
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Modern medecine caused a population in boom in Sahel Zone that the land can't support.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 21:06 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Yet the land is supporting it now, and did so though most of the '90s.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
According to the hypothesis, the droughts ended around the same time that production of the suspect pollutants dropped.
Correlation does not equal causation, che.

I realize that it fits perfectly with in the commie mindset to blame the West for the third world's problems but even you have to admit that your initial claim in the title of this thread is unsupportable with the evidence as it exists.

Apocalypse is offline Apocalypse
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 21:28
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There are starving Africans all over that continent. Pollution is just one of the factors, and not a deciding one.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 21:31 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Has anybody ever cared to notice that these countries could of been responsible for their own problems? When I was in Ecuador for example leaking fuel tanks (those used for cooking) was a major problem and caused major pollution problems. Could of that been the same in Africa? Yes it could have.

Again the ignorant leftism ignores another factor. What else is new? Blame the west for all of the 3rd world's screw ups. And it happens most of these leftists haven't even been to any of these countries. Well I have. Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia... all got problems with pollution and a bunch of people died because of throat problems in those countries... especially Ecuador.

Carver is offline Carver
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 21:43
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Why is it that the right wingers can't debate the science without resorting to political trolls.

quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Correlation does not equal causation, che.
you have to admit that your initial claim in the title of this thread is unsupportable with the evidence as it exists.


Nowhere has this article, or Che, stated correlation equals causation. The only "claim" was that the African famine MAY be caused by pollution.

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
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quote:
African Famine MAY Be Caused By 1st World Pollution


That sounds like a load of ****.

But even if it is true, quite frankly I'm not giving up my quality of life.

It has far more to do with the corrupt, ignorant African governments than with the West, though.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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First off, I would appreciate conservatives engaging in arguments with liberals without retorting to politically, trashy trolls.

Secondly, Chegitz has not made the claim that the West deserves all the blame for the problem -- it is one of the factors that could be contributing towards the problem, along with the corruption of African governments.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Carver
Why is it that the right wingers can't debate the science without resorting to political trolls.


I am not trolling, I was just saying that Chegitz is putting the blame completely (from what I see) on first world countries and that is wrong.

MrFun, I have a right to say what I wish and you have no right to tell what is wrong or not.

loinburger is offline loinburger
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
MrFun, I have a right to say what I wish and you have no right to tell what is wrong or not.


So you can say what you wish, but he can't?

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by loinburger


So you can say what you wish, but he can't?


Maybe I should be a bit more clear... I don't care if runs through a neighborhood with a bunch of posters saying what his opinion his but he has no right to silence what I say and I am not telling him to be quiet about saying his opinion either.

Carver is offline Carver
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Fez, no you weren't trolling. What you mentioned in Ecuador is the type of problem that might exist in parts of Africa.

loinburger is offline loinburger
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
...he has no right to silence what I say...


There's a big difference between "silencing" you, and telling you that your opinion is wrong/irrelevant. Disagree all you want, but don't get on a high horse.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by Carver
Why is it that the right wingers can't debate the science without resorting to political trolls.
That really wasn't meant as a troll. More of a snide and somewhat amusing remark. The trolling is going on in my thread about the Dutch.

quote:
The only "claim" was that the African famine MAY be caused by pollution.
It also MAY be caused by fluffy puppy dogs. Both statements have the same validity given the current lack of hard evidence supporting each statement.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Originally posted by Carver
Fez, no you weren't trolling. What you mentioned in Ecuador is the type of problem that might exist in parts of Africa.


Yes, and people draw conclusions by saying 1st world countries should be entirely to blame when they should not. Leaking fuel tanks is a major problem in 3rd world countries... leaking all types of nasty chemicals...

quote:
and telling you that your opinion is wrong/irrelevant.


When it apparently is not wrong or not irrelevant, in my opinion after all.

C0ckney is offline C0ckney
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
It has far more to do with the corrupt, ignorant African governments than with the West, though.


Agree 100%. Africa needs to stop blaming the West for everything and get its own house in order.

Bas is offline Bas
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 22:28
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Yes, I read an article on this as well... Apparently, pollution can alter global climate systems, and I don't see why the drought in Africa couldn't be related to this. I'm a little disappointed by the people who are not even considering that the two things could be somehow related, just because it doesn't agree with their world view.

And ofcourse, the famine in Africa is not only caused by this effect (assuming it is correct, for the moment), but by corruption, war, maleducation etc. as well. I don't think anybody will disagree on that.

Asher is offline Asher
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Obviously the only solution is to carpetbomb the 1st world so that the third world people will no longer be in famine. It's such a simple solution, why hasn't anyone thought of this?!

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 22:44 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
quote:
The only "claim" was that the African famine MAY be caused by pollution.

It also MAY be caused by fluffy puppy dogs. Both statements have the same validity given the current lack of hard evidence supporting each statement.


First of all, I'd like to point out that I stressed may because it's only a hypothesis supported by computer modeling.

Second, there is a infinately larger likelyhood that the famine was caused by pollution that fluffy puppy dogs, if only because the probablity and possibility of the latter is zero.

David Floyd, if it were true, you wouldn't have to give up anything because production of the suspect compunds has already been scaled down, hence the drop in African famines.

However, I find your statement hypocritical given your libertarian philosophy. You have no right to force your pollution on someone else. You are responsible for what that pollution does, and if you don't wish to change your lifestyle to get rid of that pollution, then you must pay compensation to the victims of your pollution.

Fez, it's clear that you either did not read the article or you did not understand it. Leaking fuel oil tanks would not produce the pollution that is under question in this article, i.e., sulfur-oxygen compounds which reduce sunlight leading to lowered evaporation of sea water leading to less rain clouds in the Sahel.


As for famine, I have long pointed out that famine is largely caused by political and economic, rather the meteorlogical problems. Famine is a problem not of production but of distribution. There is enough food to feed all the starving of the world, they simply lack the resources to obtain it. However, a drought can create a famine for people who were previously able to produce their own food.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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quote:
Fez, it's clear that you either did not read the article or you did not understand it. Leaking fuel oil tanks would not produce the pollution that is under question in this article, i.e., sulfur-oxygen compounds which reduce sunlight leading to lowered evaporation of sea water leading to less rain clouds in the Sahel.


If they leak CFCs yes they have all to do with this. So maybe you should read my posts.

quote:

As for famine, I have long pointed out that famine is largely caused by political and economic, rather the meteorlogical problems. Famine is a problem not of production but of distribution. There is enough food to feed all the starving of the world, they simply lack the resources to obtain it. However, a drought can create a famine for people who were previously able to produce their own food.


Argentina could feed the world or a large portion of it, if more attention is paid to its agricultural production. Finally they are exporting more and more... but I am talking a bit off topic here....

These countries simply cannot create enough food. They have to import the food from countries that can make food but they cannot pay for that therefore the population could starve. It is all a problem of production with some distribution irregularities. For example, Somalia, Militia Men Aideed did confisicate much of the food received for his personal army and you are right on that matter but it is mostly a production problem.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 22-07-2002 23:35 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
If they leak CFCs yes they have all to do with this. So maybe you should read my posts.


Since the article isn't talking about CFCs . . . Basic chemistry, kid. Sulfur Dioxide in not a ChloroFlouroCarbon.



edit: spelling and making the last sentence read better.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 23-07-2002 at 00:20

loinburger is offline loinburger
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Since the article isn't talking about CFCs . . . Basic chemistry, kid. ChloroFloroCarbons are not Sulfur Dioxide.


You can't force your chemistry on me!

 
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