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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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Hmmm....that's a good point on the leader generation....my gut reaction then, would be to stuff the leader in Washington, fortified with the rest of the reserve troops.
Now the player has an interesting dilemma. You can create a second army and balance out the fronts on turn two (army in position on one front on turn one), or, if navy plays a big role in your strategy (and I can envision that it will), you might wanna rush Magellen's on turn one to keep the AI from getting it, or, build the costliest ship component to jumpstart you on your way to the space race.
That's a truly tough call, though I think that, given the strategy I outlined for myself, I'd opt for the second army...shoot, that'd make for ironclad defense on two tiles, effectively limiting me to having to worry only about two tiles of defense!
Hmmm...now I can't wait to get home! LOL
-=Vel=-
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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Vel, fine about the GL, but keep it in the city set to Magellan, or people will automatically go for the army. Washington has the academy, and is building an army already, at that point in time 7 turns away. It's what psychologists(sp?) call priming: when you're asked to say 10 times rapidly after each other "green", quickly followed by the question: "what is the colour of milk?" you can be sure that the majority will say "green".
The same with the army thing: no-one will jump to rush Magellan, but in a city that needs a long time to finish one army, people will go for it without really thinking. There is no need to fortify him, everyone will use him in the first turn 
This is just perfecting things, of course. Now, where are my marines 
DeepO
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Brinoch
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Silver Spring, MD
Jan 2002
time: 00:21
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All right, the posts on the Alamo piqued my curiousity and I just couldn't sit by and let DeepO do all the work. Besides, I want a ship named after me, too. 
So I played a couple of turns to see how it would turn out.
First off, I just moved the units in Washington, and I left all the other units in place. I wasn't sure if we could move them and once I started, well, I figured what the heck, this sounds interesting, so let's see how this works.
Russo-German offensive
So, the Russians took two forts, in a linear fashion, penetrating to the second tier. They captured my RA's, of course. They also generated a leader.
The Germans took three forts, generated a leader, and basically wiped most everything else out. I also sent all the reserves to the German front for good measure. They took two of the three tier one forts and one in tier two.
They both attacked in the air, and my valiant F-15's shot down plenty of jet fighters. However, their bombers regularly penetrated to bomb my rails and roads.
Frankly, neither one was *that* aggresive. They hit me with some of their forces, attacked my infrastructure and moved a lot of units around. If they give me time, I know I can hold the land fronts.
My Counter-Offensive
There was no way I could dislodge the Germans from the tier one forts, but I did (at high cost) dislodge them from the tier two. They captured my RA, but left them relatively unprotected and I was able to recapture them somewhat easily, and then I employed the RA to eradicate their roads. Granted, this will lose me another MI, but it may be worth the time.
My Navy in the Inner Sea smacked the Russians around and it seems I'll be able to consolidate this.
On the Russian front, I retook all the forts and was able to recapture *some* of my RA, which I brought back to the safety of my forts.
I spread my Navy out to intercept the Japanese and Chinese.
***
Some thoughts. Vel, it might be fun if you gave America some paratroopers. I'm giving some serious thought to nuking the front rank of Russian or German cities and trying to take them and either force a peace or raze the cities. And, if you can interdict forces and wreck havic behind the lines, well, that's just fun.
For Russia, it seems they move a lot of units to Moscow, and that might be a decent move to begin with.
Having some Marines would be nice for taking the Uranium or invading the Russians...
Knocking roads out along the borders is definitely, definitely required. It buys you time and bunches up your enemies... 
DeepO, I tested the stealths in Russian and German airspace and all were shot down. All of them.
Some thoughts on war-weariness. I think, and I could be wrong here, that if you start the war, the effects are more pronounced on you. Is there some way to start the game at war without starting it? Maybe not, but just a thought.
Ummm... that's all I can think of now. More playing... er... testing.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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Brinoch, nice to have you joining in, but don't think your of the hook just yet. Vel was very good in its unit placements, you have about 3 turns before the big stacks arrive. Those turn 1 attacks can be very annoying, and always take some forts, but they're nothing compared to what is coming... please play another few turns, and let us know if you can hold on. The good thing about it is that this time, you can prepare yourself a bit, I have now 9 troops each on my first tier forts. (turn 3, because I was testing quite a few things, and have reloaded. I'm currently about an hour or four into the test, but I check here often, and lose some time posting)
I'm also rethinking the use of nukes, but I really would want to keep some of them around for the marine stacks that are being loaded again. In the next beta (the final test, most likely) the tacticals will mean more depth in the use of nukes. But me too was lurking towards Moscow, I choose St Petersburg instead. I won't take it (even if I maybe can do it), as it will probably cost me too much units. But I now know how I can do it, if needed. It will be a nice tactic in the final 
Note that the intial attack will be tweaked down a little in next beta, so you'll have it a bit easier to hold on to your forts. I would love it if you can hold onto the second tier, because that is the biggest risk... if they get a too greater foot into your territory, you have lost.
Re: the stealths: yeah, I've seen it again. But I was testing it, and it seems like vulture said in the bugs thread I started, it depends on how many fighters are in the neighbourhood. I nuked them, and after that there was no problem anymore, only part of my stealths got shot down. still highly annoying you can't use them, though, luckily you still have ships
One comment: I don't know if it is allowed in game, but the whole point of the game is that you must not make peace to the AIs, even if they offer it to you! You have to be constantly at war, until your ship is build. One of the dirty tricks of this scenario (there are quite a few more of them)
War weariness: Arrian, that could certainly work! War weariness is a b!tch in this game, if Vel could get the AIs to declare war it would be a lot better. Besides, how much would it take to insult the most aggressive civs around
DeepO
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phunny_pharmer
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Are you releasing a new version later tonight? I want to test...when I can.
Going to be great phun.
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Brinoch
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Silver Spring, MD
Jan 2002
time: 00:21
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After posting last time, I continued my game -- I'm in turn five (or is it six...) and the big fleets are coming and the big armies, too. Ouch. That's all I can say.
Russian Front
So, here's what happened: I did nuke the Russians. Three times. I double nuked Moscow and single hit St. Petersburg. After the dust settled, I was able to take St. Petersburg with ease. This killed off a bunch of his air force. I made a boo-boo, though, and actually conquered the city. I wanted to raze it. Hitting Moscow was key, though. After investigating what they had in the city I was stunned. Nearly all their fighters and bombers were in the city, as well as substantial numbers of MI, MA, and RA. The second nuke ended most of their units -- I think it left one MI at 1 HP, 1 Bomber at 1 HP and 3 Fighters. That was basically the end of their air force.
I earned a leader on the Russian front with "Abrams' Hammer" and turned that into another MI Army (along with the "Unbreakables"). After my sally in Russian territory, I ripped up the tier one forts and retreated to tier two.
Russia seems to be taking their time and trying to use his fleet in piecemeal attacks. He retook St. Petersburg but hasn't done anything more than kill a few of his MI and MA per turn on my forts.
German Front
Much the same on this front. The Germans came on strong. After T1, I ripped up the forts and pulled back to the second tier.
I had left my scouts behind to watch and see what they did (the scouts died), as well as an MI with my recaptured RA. The Germans *really* pour it on. They penetrated my screens again to the hills behind the fort line. After restabilizing the front, I could see his forces massing to strike again. Gulp. Nuke time. Super-scud flew and took out the threat.
I placed one of my MI armies on this front as a nice blocker. I built "Panama" -- actually Cincinnati, but who's checking -- on the hills to the Southeast of the fort line.
Overall
*Note: If I'd pulled back early, I'd be doing somewhat better at this point in the game.
I now had all my units in the 4 forts (two on each front) and in Cincinnati.
Moscow and St. Petersburg were smoldering ruins with no transportation facilities. Russia, though, still strong was substantially reduced and slowed down.
Germany was still strong, but the big pollution blocker in front of my lines is slowing him down too.
Yamamoto's Revenge
Japan is sending their troops in what appears to be a coordinated attack on the Russian front. They have a ROP treaty with Russia and are moving their troops through -- they look to be about 4 or 5 turns away.
Their Navy, though, is smart. Japan is bunching their attackers to come at me in waves -- devilish AI. He's put together large groups of Destroyers, augmented with BB's with Sub's around. His trannies are following, but *behind* his attackers.
I took out a lot of his Destroyers, but at a high cost. My Navy is substantially reduced. I can't stop him from landing.
Is it Chiang or Mao? I can't tell.
So far as I can tell, China isn't doing anything. They haven't moved out of their ports at all (I have subs in a picket line to show me his moves). On my East Coast, I think I can stop China. That's where I have the most strength. If he goes west, though, I'm done for.
I tried spying troop positions, but that darn Chinese leader found out about it...
War Weariness
My second turn I had pretty substantial war weariness. The third turn I had disorder (because I didn't manage my cities.... me stoopid). The fourth turn I didn't predict how bad it would be, so the mobs rampaged. The fifth I got them in line, but had virtually no production. (I guess it is the sixth turn) Now, I'm forced with a choice, anarchy now or anarchy later? I can't hold the government.
If this will be the level, I'll be forced to follow Vel's plan and go anarchy early.
Thoughts
Not much original here. Vel, I think you gave them too many destroyers. I'm employing my fleet well, but just through attrition I've gotten too weak to stop them.
Nukes are pretty critical. I may have used mine too early, but I think I dealt a pretty severe blow to Russia. Maybe enough to hold him off.
Germany is pretty tough, and I think I'll need another one there soon... leaving none for beachheads or fleets.
I like the choice, though. You have to make your nukes count. You can get a heavy hit early, or use them to save your skin late.
On their side, if they build 'em, they're gonna use 'em. Need to beware of that. That's the one vulnerability to having all your troops in four or five spaces.
It sounds from the posts, though, that the ideas being put into action will make this pretty close.
Nice scenario Vel. I get nervous nearly every turn trying to see what that AI is gonna do.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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Brinoch, glad you are liking it! The idea is to cut back on the destroyers a little, but if I'm following Vel's line of thought, those first attack waves will remain relatively unaltered.
As I am constantly stealing maps (and reloading, this is a test game after all), I know where China's navy is. If you are in turn 6 (3700 BC), you should see them coming around the corner... about now The Japanese the same, I think you haven't seen the last of them. At least I hope so.
The Russians are too soft, but this will be adjusted again, they are loading troops on the nothern part of the map, and sending them all the way around Japan towards you. When cutting back on the transports, they (hopefully) will just come over land.
My comments are on their way, for now I'd say: keep it going! What will happen when you launched your last nuke?
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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Right. Marine testing... beta 3, take 2 (well, first time was just a quick run to see if the chokepoints got improved).
I won't be detailing the game as much as in previous test, we now more or less know what is supposed to happen. Besides, each time I alt+tab to the forum, I get distracted by other posts. I will be stealing plans each turn, though, and will write down anything interesting.
As the focus is on marine action, I won't bother with research, and will use the test-cash I have to rush anything I feel like. Starting with a 1-turn army (1640 gold)... I can't imagine that after all these months of play, this is the first time I try to rush an army, I always thought them to be like small wonders, non-rushable. Thanks Aeson for the tip, you made my Civ life considerably easier, I never know what I have to do with all the extra cash in the modern age!
I checked the Chinese: they have Sun-tzu and the pyramids, and thus are in their GA.
What was not on your list of things to add to the next beta: St. Louis is the only city that has no airport, and would need it to give the F15s some rest.
Vel, there are still a few cities without courthouses and policestations. Is this intentional? The funny thing is that those without courthouses could really need it: they're the most distant from FP or Palace...
In turn one, I lost 4 fortresses again, even with 4 drafted MIs on the ready. Further, there is still on tweak I hope you will be willing to make to the German chokepoint: there it doesn't go from 3 tiles first tier to 2 tiles second tier, but to 3 tiles second tier. It is already harder as the eastern first tier tile is plains, and no hill (no need to change that, but you have to take this into account when playing), but I'd certainly make the eastern second tier tile sea.
I nuked the turn 2 attack forces, which let me retake the first tier quite easily. The Russian even left all by them selves, I had put 12 units beside their 7 intruders, and they were scared Pussies I had the same problem again: the Russians took out my RR, so I was unable to get all reinforcements where I wanted them to be. but hey, if they are going to leave themselves, no problem.
The extra subs sure help, it even seems to be too much (just kidding, they're only too much in the first turns, I think). But I did lose Arrian as the first ship in turn 2, out of the blue came another sub, and took him down. I thought at first it was me, and was cursing all over my screen, but when the dusts settled, I noticed that I was the sub right next to him... These names surely give the whole thing a personal touch. Oh, I lost Vel too, on a carrier for crying out loud. That surely isn't my luckiest ship, it will always go down against the odds.
The AIs are loading their transports again in about the same way as last time. I guess we could think this will be a constant somewhat. I'm really looking forward to how they will use them, I think I'll test a little less, and fast forward a bit until it becomes interesting.
One thing that does puzzle me, and I feel a bit embaressed I only notice it now, is that actually only a few cities have police stations... right now I'm alternating between courthouses, troops, and policestations. Vel, knowing that it will be such a lengthly war, maybe police everywhere would be good. I can understand you do not give each city courthouses, but policestations? War weariness is already quite hard, now I understand why my democracy revolted in just 8 turns in beta 1... But I'm not complaining, if it works out having the AI declare war on you instead of declaring it yourself, it might not be a big deal. Again, we don't want to make it too easy, do we
I have to take back what I said earlier, upon close inspection of all the transports in the game, it seems that each and every one of them is coupled to a nannie (is it nannie, or nanny? somehow I remember it with 'ie', but that sounds so un-English). However, as there are such an abundance of ships around, it will be hard to take out the transport stacks... it is no exception to see them moving in 8 trannies+8nannies combination.
Vel, we have a problem (sounds a bit like 'Houston, we have a problem' ). By lowering the costs of espionage, there is little challenge left. In 3800 BC (turn 4, I believe), I was able to steal 3 techs, for the pittiful price of ~3000 gold... can you mod it that in general, spy mission cost less, but stealing techs costs more? Otherwise, the cost of all espionage has to go up considerably. Further, can you set AI to AI tech trade on a lower level? This works to our advantage even further...
If this doesn't get adjusted, I think there is little challenge left, it is relatively easy to set 6K in gold aside, if this will give you all techs in 10 turns, the ship is built in only 12 turns or so. If interested, I will continue to try this, but I think that Aeson's 2750 BC is actually a late ending, it should be possible to leave this planet some 800 years earlier. Surely that can't be the goal, with all the work put into this mod, it should at least take 30 turns
Further, the marines thing goes about as last time, ATM about two third of the transports are loaded, many with marines. I just had a real epic navy battle, destroying some 15 ships in one turn. I'm still keeping on eye on how it goes further. The first Japanese marines should arrive on my coast next turn, and as I only steal maps at the end of the turn, I missed one transport. I don't know if they are going to make it now, or that I still have a shot on them, it could become very interesting!
I think our navy is about balanced right now, I have enough units so that I can lose some from time to time, while sending a few to the ports for healing. However, you constantly have to be very careful with them, those AIs have to tendency to do unexpected things. I'm getting a completely new admiration for them, it is a pitty you don't see this kind of stuff in normal games. For instance using mass bombardment to soften up your stack of ships that came too close, and then closing in for the kill. I'm learning completely new things here, but won't post them as they are too much spoilers, and too less testing. Boy, you can write books about the strats for this game!
I had to rush some battleships so I can kill the Chinese Marines that are finally arriving, as they destroyed my attackforce... as a result I can't steal maps right now. It should be better next turn, I'm sure curious what the Japanese are up to. So far I only saw their smaller transports arriving, nothing major yet.
Vel, don't cut back on those marines, the AI will need a whole bunch of them. If you have to diminish the troop count, cut back on MIs instead. And perhaps, if this is possible, load a few transports with marines already and position these on the map together with their nanniesand a few subs, this should make sure that the marines will be hitting the coast a little earlier. Right now, the first waves are erratic, I'm hoping the big ones are still coming (I think so, but can't check right now.)
Even if the Russians are too weak due to the transport-business, they have their good moments from time to time. They just killed my unbreakables, softening them up with bombardments and a lone MA, and then hitting hard with 2 4xMA armies.
One question: do all AIs have the academy prebuilt? I would do so, certainly for the Chinese. They load their armies up first, but these first transports are the easiest to kill. Now, they don't have armies anymore, and also no leaders as they did not had any land battles yet.
Right. next turn, the real waves commence. Japan is moving in, I'm killing transports by the dozens. This is a completely new stage in the the game, it has moved from a 'keep the chokepoint' game to a naval game, and I like it a lot. If only one transport can make it through, I'd be in serious trouble, as all my cities are undefended, so it really is full of tension.
I thought the Chinese and the Japanese would be at my coast about the same time, however, they are doing something else, the Chinese are sneaking in from behind! great stuff, absolutely fabulous... Without the ever watching subs, they would have slipped through, but I decided to follow a bunch of them when I spotted them cruising along their coast. I wanted to attack them, but you can't do that so close to the Chinese coast, or you'd lose all your ships. These transports and marines is one of the best additions thus far, and I'm seriously thinking you shouldn't cut back on the destroyers for both the Chinese and the Japanese. So far, the transports move in not in stacks, but in packs, which makes it possible to pick them of one by one. But you need lots of ships, or they will slip through.
BTW, Magellan is a must! If you haven't built it by now, either at the first turn, or with a leader this would be a very different game indeed.
okay, I just saw your last post. Things that you should not delete IMO: the extra transports for the Japanese and Chinese. They'll both come in packs. What you could do is to spread it out a little, on both sides. I think that the coming few turns are going to be hectic here, as many will come together. I only hope that there will be no rebellion now, as that would be the end of me, other then that it is all going very well, just enough tension, but not too much so you can't handle things.
More comments in a moment,
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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Phew... I was worried you were going to do things double, and as I really hate that, I don't wish it to others neither
okay, my comments continued: I was just checking the maps again, and it is going to be close. So far, the Japanese still have a few trannies+nannies (from now on called traninnies, they always move in couples) back on their coast, waiting to be filled up. They have some troops still moving towards them, they moved both their traninnies and marines + MAs. What is in the ships is a very welcome surprise: sometimes they are mixed, sometimes they're just MA or just marines, but they nearly never use MIs. I wouldn't change one bit of the ground troops for them, possibly only giving them a few more marines instead of MIs. What I would change is add some marines to transports already, and put these between the string of islands and the continent. And, move some of the initial destroyers higher up, the initial destroyer rush can be hard, and it seems they are out of destroyers now (apart from the nannies)
The Chinese: the bastards they are really circumventing my territory, and moving along the south pole! I'm picking them off one by one, but they keep drawing my ships farther away from the west coast, so it becomes a problem with the Japanese. Like I said, fabulous stuff, I couldn't have dreamt it up. However, they only had a few traninnies on my East coast, maybe you should put some loaded transports there as well (or more then there are now).
I made some remark on deminishing the second tier German chokepoint: well, forget aoubt that one. But please put a fortress, road, and a MI there. Also, the first tier plain with two MAs is a bit of a easy target, it is good to have a less defensive position there, but you really need some troops, those two MAs get eaten away too easily. If you could replace them with MIs, it would already be an improvement.
The tech stealing really is a problem, so please check that. Good thing that I tried this, so far no-one has reported on it, but it is way too easy. 800 gold for a space tech... that's about 3 turns of 100% tax.
Other things... maybe the 4 ICBMs is too much. 2 ICBMS and 2 tacticals would already be enough, perhaps. I thought you'd need them to destroy the capitals when the ships were too close on leaving, but I guess that the AIs have about all the techs now, but they are not building parts. I don't have a very good idea how to counter this, I fear that if you only enable space victory, the ship will get build about 20 turns into the game. the AI-to-AI tech trade could be what is killing it, but as all AIs have so much cash, it wouldn't matter anyhow.
Perhaps you should cut back on the cash... they already have no maintenance problems... I'll do the next turn, and will try to make peace with them (faking it, of course), only to see the amount of cash they have. BRB.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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okay, I just sank 10 Japanese transports Good thing I was anticipating them. Of course, I nuked them, otherwise I wouldn't have nearly enough ships to get them all... there were two groups (part of the second is still afloat, but this is for next turn, now I have to regroup), the first one heading for Philadelhia, maybe rounding cape Chicago, but I couldn't wait to see, they had to go now. these consisted of 2 traninnies with marines, followed by an empty traninny(!), followed by 4 traninnies mixed. a major force, if you'd somehow miss these: game over. The second one was more spread out, and part of it is still on its way, heading for either New York or for the Russian side of the border. I'm glad the marines are working as planned...
China has a similar force on its way, but will be one turn later arriving. This might be too much of the good stuff of life; once you handled the Japanese, you should be able to rebuild your forces a little. And, as the Chinese are not so packed together as the Japanese (more like 2 tiles apart, but some clumps of 4 traninnies too) a nuke is not really an option. It might be a good idea to have the carrier fully loaded as a bonus, half with F15s, half with stealth bombers. If people do not anticipate this (I cheated by peeping in the maps of course), the Chinese will be much harder. But that was the point, no, the sleeping giant civ.
While I was there, I also stole their world map, and the terraforming is not going good. Maybe you should give all AIs an extra 10-5 workers. Maybe they should be sensible enough to build their own workers. I don't know.
cash: at 3650BC, Japan has ~8k, Germany has ~15K, Russia has ~35K, China has ~60K. some are using cash, most are not. I expect that their science rates are set to max, but in monarchy it would not be overwhelming... and still research is going too quick.
I think I will stop here with the current test. Not only is it 3.40am again, but the following phase is looking to become so good I don't want to play it through before the final.
DeepO
[Edited: hit space+tab, instead of alt+tab. I didn't want to post yet, so finished it in edit]
Last edited by DeepO on 27-07-2002 at 06:37
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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'k....made the changes...too many to reiterate here...suffice it to say that the stuff we discussed above, it's been implemented. The USA has a further bulked up navy that's a bit spread around (including subs in picket lines already). All ships have been named. All air force squadrons have been named. A few surprise units tossed into the mix for grins. The total unit count has gone down, thanks to stripping out lots of AI Radar Artillery. The initial attack forces have been tweaked, and three of the ICBM's the US has are gone. In their place....two tactical nukes.
Tech stealing and sabatoging have both been increased in price (tech stealing moreso than sabatoge), but the other stuff remained the same price.
USA starts with 3k in gold, and the gold that the AI begins with has been cut down.
Russian naval presence has been somewhat limited, Germany less so, and Japan stayed the same. China actually increased marginally. Minor net loss in total enemy navy strength, minor net gain in total American Naval strength, mostly thanks to stocking the carriers with at least two, and in some cases four fighters.
American choke point presence has been bulked up, not by adding units, but by adding an average of 8hp per front to the line....that should give the Americans more staying power, so that it's not a total route on turn one. Still, I don't think it's possible to hold everything. Maybe so, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on it.
Gonna play out turn one to set things up, then upload what I think just might be the final file...
-=Vel=-
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26-07-2002 21:57
Marines?! What?! You want me to make this something approaching a fair fight? *G*
I still have some proposed tweaks, one that I've mentioned several times before but haven't had any comment on from you (to the positive or negative): get some subs a little more out off the coast. Right now, they are about as far as the main forces, and don't really scout from turn one, except for the two attack subs in the inland sea. It could be a slight advantage given to the human...
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