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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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This thread is for testing and bug reporting for the Alamo scenario (MT V). If you're wanting to hold out till we get it properly balanced and thoroughly tested, this is NOT the thread for you! This is the thread for those brave souls who don't mind slogging through the same first turn over and over again to make sure the AI puts up a good fight!
Will be posting the bic in its current form when I get home tonight, but here's some information those who have volunteered can ponder till then, and some instructions regarding the first turn:
1) All forms of government save for Rep and Dem have been moved to a tech called "Gov Tech" which the AI civs have at game start. This is a no era tech assigned as a bonus, which keeps the human player from selecting anything but Demo or Rep.
2) All AI civs have been set to begin in Monarchy, have Monarchy as their preferred government, and Monarchy itself has been modified to allow the AI 12 free (no support) units per city, regardless of size.
3) All AI Civs have been set to maximum aggressiveness, and further, set to "build often" offensive land, naval, and air units.
****
Scenario Instructions for turn one
In order to keep true to the game's stated objectives (and make things painfully hard for the American player), use the following script for turn one of the game. This will be what I'll be doing when we get the scenario fully tweaked and perfected, save at the end of the first turn, and post the file for downloading:
1) Download the bic and place in your civ3 scenarios folder. Fire up Civ3, click "load scenario" and choose the Alamo.bic.
2) Go get a drink and some munchies, and make yourself comfortable....the file takes a LONG time to initialize (so many units, I'm thinking).
3) Go through and set production in all cities to something besides warriors. Doesn't matter what, just make sure it's modern. The players will want to do their own production anyways, what we don't want is to hand them a fistful of warriors off the cuff!
4) You will note that each civ has a galley sitting near some of your units. Contact the civs via these galleys, in this order, and with these trades:
a) Russia - Trade gems for their world map.
b) Germany - Trade contact with Russia for their world map
c) Japan - Trade contact with Russia and Germany for their world map
d) China - Trade contact with Russia, Germany, and Japan for their world map.
In this way, all our enemies wind up knowing about each other, and can communicate/trade freely.
4) Plant spies. I have found best success by planting spies in the following order, but it may not matter:
Russia, Japan, China, Germany.
5) Declaration of war: You will note that each nation has a galley sitting in range of some of your subs. Attack each nation's galley with subs to start the war. Note that these four subs are the ONLY naval units you may use on the first turn, and ONLY to attack enemy galleys. Leave them where they sit, after the battles.
6) Place all F-15's on air superiority missions. No other planes may take any action on turn one.
All other forces stand down (space bar).
Depending on the random number seed, you may or may not lose one of the forts on the Russian front, but you will certainly lose one on the German front. After that first turn, the game can be played out any way you like....that first turn is more of a "game setup" turn to get us in the war, and make sure that the baddies get to draw first blood.
-=Vel=-
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FrustratedPoet
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All Glory To The Hypnotoad!
Mar 2002
time: 05:21
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Well ... I played a few turns and can confirm that this is indeed a very difficult situation. 
I'm not exactly the best player around, and maybe the more accomplished amongst us will find it too easy.
The AI was very aggressive against me, on the first turn they tried to bombard the railroad links to the chokepoints. Didn't do them much good, though. They were attacking me hard and consistently for the 5 or 6 turns I played, despite me destroying a couple of uber-stack and armies with ICBM's.
Russia and Germany are a threat, certainly, but not very scary. The ones that really have me worried are Japan and China.
I think the western USA is in deep deep trouble. After a few turns, just when I had beaten back a huge Russian offensive, both the Japanese and Chinese landed several transport full of MA's next to New York. My defensive forces at the chokepoint were too weak from the Russian attack to defeat them and I lost the city. The game would only have gone downhill from here, so I stopped.
I'll try again with a slightly different strat to see how I can change things, but at the moment I'm leaning towards thinking that this scenario is a bit too hard. We'll see, though, as long as you can research all the techs needed for the SS (will Theory of Evolution help here?) and build the Iron Works then you might be able to sneak out a win ... you might be down to only 1 or 2 cities when you do it, though, but I suppose that is the whole point. 
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Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:21
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I played about 10 turns so far, and it seems like the human can hold the AI off just about indefinitely without Nukes. The key is sinking transports, which is sorta a guessing game. Split up your navy and they get sunk, keep them together and you might miss the landing party... exciting really.
I found the Radar Artillery to be most useful. Make sure there are no roads leading up to your blockades. That gives you a free turn to bombard their troops, which they withdraw if still alive. Really helpful when they send up the Armies. So far I only nuked 1 time, got about 10 destroyers, 3 transports, 2 MA armies (damaging another), and 10-15 loose MA's and MI's. Quite fun!
The problem with artillery is the AI has no idea what it's doing with them. I think building up pure MA and RA (mostly RA), with enough MI's thrown in to hold the chokepoints, and Battleships to sink transports... the player could very well have a shot at conquering the world (insanely long game though). I mean, you have the full 540 turns...
Is there anyway to bump the year up to 1950AD+?
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Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:21
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I just launched, only took until 2510BC.. The AI never started building their Spaceships. Quite a large score (25k+), but fixing the date will fix that 
The AI's probably need some super cities of their own to have any sort of space race atmosphere. Also, they spend too much time building the wonders. Assign them all from the start and it should help.
I was thinking it might make it more interesting to put the closest Uranium in AI territory (New Kyoto? The closest Japanese island city). It would be pretty hairy trying to get enough troops up there to take the city.
The AI also need more Transports I think. I sunk about 20 of them, and that was basically it, no more threat from the AI. ToE makes the techs too quick as well. Maybe up the tech cost for all of the spaceship ones, and the build costs for the components as well.
I do take back my observation that conquest might be possible though. I didn't realize that we had to stay in Democracy or Republic. War weariness was getting pretty bad near the end.
Finally, the chokepoints are too easily held. If one or the other were two tiles wide at the narrowest it might give the AI a chance to bust through. All I had to do was put an army of Mech Infantry on each isthmus, and the AI stopped trying to get through after that. Also, bombarding the AI's roads makes it impossible for them to get through in the face of bombardment. I took out 6 armies without any losses, not counting the ones I nuked (lots of fun!). Maybe if there were hills up to the chokepoints (which stay mountains) the AI could move up and attack with their MA armies, even without roads.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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WARNING: MASSIVE SPOILERS AHEAD!
All right, I just started this scenario, and will add things to this post when I encounter them. I plan on playing the first turn a couple of times, saving when something happens, so if interested give a yell, and I'll post a save for the given situation.
First of all: I've read many of the comments so far, and I agree. Given enough time, it might be possible to win this with a domination, or conquest, even if the odds are so bad. But I'm pretty certain though, that without these two victory conditions, the AIs will race towards the stars so fast that it becomes impossible for the humans to do it... so limiting the turns given would be the best solution.
When will the scenario start, right before the next turn happens? I was wondering whether I'm allowed to draft in the first turn, before the real war breaks out. So far, I haven't done this yet.
I noticed you gave many ships a name, a nice addition, but not all of them were done like that. I hope you get around to naming all of the BSs (Call one Brigitte Bardot if you run out of inspiration), Aegis and Carriers, and leave the destroyers as is. It would make it more personal... I plan on taking quite a bit of risk with the USS Velocyrix 
I followed the rest of the instructions, but was unable to get a spy amongst the Chinese. I had to reinitialize the scenario... second time everything went well.
Next, I kept hitting space for every unit. I hope in the final thing, these get set to fortify instead... Just a principal thing, I don't think it matters much. But then I got surprised; I always play with the 'wait before end of turn' option, but you had that option turned off... oh well, one less save
The initial turn sure is cool, that's another reason why I would give that save to the board, and not the one immediately following the first turn. You could do that by giving all units orders like we did know (maybe setting the first forts, which have a chance of getting run over to fortify), and save there. It gives people a little more feeling for what is going on, and those initial air fights sure are fun too watch (especially since the Americans win most of them (all of them, in my seed)).
Other things to note: My Japanese spy was captured on the first turn  , and two of the initial attack subs survive (nearly three in my game). That's not necesarrily bad, but they have a strange name after that...
Something I didn't pay attention to the first turn, did you intentionally left the iron unconnected, or was it bombed in my game? Damn annoying I can't rebuild some of the RRs... that's one of the reasons I would love having the choice of placing the first 10 units, I would certainly shield some resources by putting a unit on top of them. Oh well, adds to the challenge, let's say
I don't know why you gave the Americans stealth fighters, so far all of them got shot down. I don't see the reason for it either, normally stealth would mean lower chance of getting intercepted, not higher... you didn't change them to 100% interceptable, did you? Oh well, they're all gone in the first turn, and I won't build others... maybe stealth bombers have more luck. If I ever get that far, it is getting grim...
Turn 3: The Germans are putting up a nice fight, and I barely can hold them off. Their troops are very well spaced: so far every turn it has been close, but they never overran me. The Russians, however, are less good: they refuse to attack me over land. I did put one army of MIs there, and the other chokepoint was well defended, but not better than the Germans. It might be an idea to give them a fortress in the hill, so they can rest a little. So far, they only killed one of my MAs, which ventured out on their territory to pillage a road I was unable to bombard on the first turn. They are however trying with transports, and as half my navy was shot down by those darn Chinese, I can't reach them in time. Could become interesting.
War weariness is already getting hard: I had to put lux to 20% to keep the entertainers at bay, as a result it is taking me another 7 turns until I get the first tech. Maybe the drafting in the first turn was not a good idea after all, so far I haven't really used those conscripts, apart from creating some distractions for the bombers, and transports. One advantage of testing is that it is not considered a cheat if you restart
Other observations: so far the Germans and the Rus have a RoP, other then that all Civs trade. The Chinese have been building their navy, and have sank about one third of my fleet... as a result if both them and the Russians decide to send transports at the same time, I can only counter one of them. It might be a good idea to give the Americans additional subs, as scouts. Or place the existing a little further, so they cover a bit more ground (erh...ocean) at the start. The Japanese, however, did nothing so far, except killing my spies (I tried each turn, but was unable to infiltrate them. As a result I don't know what they're up to) It's been quite interesting, and I hunger for more!
Turn 4: What was that saying, be careful what you wish for? Right. Both the Germans and the Rus showed up at my borders with MA armies... I wonder what they're up to
One strange thing was that the Germans practically withdraw from the fortress that gets overrun in the first turn, leaving just a MI and a MA in place. I gladly took control of it again. Vel, I must say that the placing is very well done: that one tile of desert to the side of it means that suprise forces can fairly quickly attack you, as even without a road it can be crossed within on turn.
The Japanese sabotaged my ToE construction (I agree it should be out, but right now I'd like to have it constructed), and just entered my borders with a transport. Further the Chinese have one transport as well, and the Russians are bringing 3. A good thing I have most of my borders occupied by now, and the AIs have no marines... even those two scouts come in handy (I was wondering why I got those, now I know)
I managed to infiltrate Kyoto, and returned the favor: they now do not have a spy anymore with me. I wish I was able to try it too with the other Civs, but I lack the cash... maybe it would be good to give us some more gold, after all, the AIs have enough cash to buy half of our cities...
Turn 5: I just was hit by 4 MA armies, and as a result lost my just reconquered chokepoint again with massive losses on my side. As more armies approached, I had no other choice then to nuke them. I should have done this the previous turn. The Russians were also nuked (again a few armies were approaching), another quarter of my navy was sunk by the Germans, but so far I haven't seen any transports from the East yet. War weariness is staying steady, even with the two nukes. I am in firm control of the inland sea, but other than that, I'm unable to keep my navy afloat. The AIs seem to be building all kind of things, except troops and transports... The Chinese are yet to awaken, but I fear that I am facing a nice surprise from my Japanese brothers, as they now have a RoP with the Russians. So far the space race is steady, I haven't build anything yet, but neither have the AIs.
I'm planning on just a few more turns, then I'll end this first test. So far the troops seem to be well balanced and spread out, but my research is seriously lacking, my navy is all but alive, and I had to use 2 nukes already. This is surely a big challenge!
Turn 8: I quit. I just was trown into anarchy, and an extra four turns do not make a good test anymore. Maybe I should have set my lux rate a bit higher, but so far I haven't got any research yet, and I didn't want to burden it more... still 3 turns to the first tech, running a small deficit.
I now have a pretty good insight in what makes this particular scenario roll, and so far found it very challenging, but doable. What the AIs have left of their initial forces:
Germany: 201 MI, 63 MA, 30 RA, 3 trannies, 5 sub, 14 dest, 1 BS, 26 jets, 1 army. no bombers.
Russia: 243 MI, 30 MA, 42 RA, 2 trannies, 5 nu.sub, 6 dest, 2 BS, 32 jets, 2 bombers, 3 armies (and a leader).
Japan: 203 MI, 64 MA, 11 RA, 7 trannies, 1 BS, 1 Aegis, 1 sub, 14 dest, 26 bombers, 29 jets, 4 armies.
China: 147 MI, 83 MA, 1 tranny, 3 sub, 7 dest, 1 aegis, 26 bombers, 58 jets, no armies (what, they disbanded them? I only sunk one transport IIRC).
All have one part of the ship built, except China who has none. They aren't building anything either.
If I compare this to the start, it seems that most were building up MIs... it might be a good idea to give them more MIs, so they can build something else. Or somehow tweak it that they do not build those things so often, I was hoping that with the new patch the AIs would go for MAs more often... I read somewhere that you gave each AI civ 12 free units per city, could this be partly obstructing it? Maybe when they get less free units, they will focus on quality a bit more. They have enough cash, even if you'd double their forces they wouldn't run into problems.
What I would tweak in the next version is to give us some more cash (nothing extraordinary, just 4K or so), some more subs for scouting, and one major thing: give the AIs marines!!! As it is now, there is a cheap tactic (which I will fully exploit in the next test run ): instead of trying to build expensive MIs and MAs, you can build the first couple of turns swordmen, a rato of one per city per turn. Use these to fully occupy the coast, and you don't have to fear any invasion anymore. So what if they sink your navy, if they're just bombing it doesn't matter much. This has to be countered, it is just too cheap.
Finally: Get the ToE out. This would totally negate the space race feeling, but make it a ToE race...
I hope this long post actually did some good, I like very much what I see, and with a little tweaking this can become the ultimate in scenarios. 
DeepO
BTW, the USS Velocyrix was a though one, it was one of the last big ships to fall prey to the Germans. I really grew fond of the little guy
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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Sorry guys, I didn't read your last few posts, as I was replying for a few hours while playing the game. I have to say you were right in many places, though
The race towards uranium would be very cool, but please make sure it doesn't move... if it would disappear from the island, there is no chance of securing it. As to the chokepoints: I thought the German one was good, maybe a little hill instead of mountain on their side of the border would help. The Russian I agree completely, there was little challenge there.
Extra transports: Very nice, but I would make a big difference in the different AIs: give Japan and China 3 or 4 times the transports, but don't do the same with the German and Russians... they do build when they think they need it. Just make sure you add Marines!!
Also, I found the inland sea too little of a challenge, with some careful maneuvering in the beginning, you control it quite easily, and as neither the Germans nor the Russians build transports there, there is no real threat anymore. I more or less used it as a killing spot for bombers, with the carrier fully loaded with F15s.Giving the AIs transports in the sea could be interesting.
As to the wonders: In my game it was not only the AIs but also me who became too distracted... Sistine sure is tempting, with the massive War Weariness. And the Pyramids, well, I was kind of going for that one as well.
Aeson, did your AIs started warring on each other? And did you build the ToE to get to a quick result?
One thing I don't completely agree with is that domination is not possible with the full 540 turns in front of you. I might be wrong, but if you manage to build up massive forces, you could probably take out one civ in a few turns. The WW should be ok then, and doesn't this get reset when in anarchy? It might pay of to just keep 20 turns of Anarchy, meanwhile conquering one civ, building up again, and repeat with the next. No way it is going to be easy, though.
DeepO
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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DeepO, your timing could not have been better! I was just settling in here to make the changes on my list, and now have a few more to add! Thank ya!
Sounds like we've got all the ingredients in place then. With some beefed up naval transport capacity, and maybe some more MA all around (since they seem reluctant to build their own, I figured I'll just give them some more!), along with a healthy does of Marines, some tweaks and adjustments to the choke points to make them a bit tougher to hold, I think we might have ourselves a real winner here!
I'm off to make the changes outlined, and this time, instead of posting the raw bic file, will post the first turn, exactly as it will appear to the players....how's that? Back in a couple of whiles with the changes!
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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 'tis true, bro...tis true!
'k...in addition to the changes I posted earlier, here's the skinny on the other changes I've made so far. I've finished the changes, will play out the first turn as and save as the players will see the final run through.
1) All border units will be fortified, per request.
2) All iron and coal has been roaded to facilitate railroad repairs
3) Choke point has been widened on both the Russian and German front to make it a bit harder to hold.
4) Both American armies have been deleted.
5) All enemy AI have been given 60-80 marines (13.9.1 marines, btw), 20 extra DD's and 20 extra trannies.
6) AI naval presence in the inland sea has been bulked up, and now includes a few trannies (4, 2 for germany, 2 for the Rus).
7) More ships now have names, including one named after each person who has posted in the testing thread thus far....
8) America has been given a bit more cash
9) All wonders have been built (by various Chinese cities), 'cept for the Colassus (maybe give America one small chance for a bit more money).
10) Prices of the ship parts have been doubled across the board.
I'm off to play out the first turn and save....will post the file here as soon as I'm done!
-=Vel=-
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22-07-2002 21:23
Attachment: 
I'll admit that I didn't look for that, but that they're showing up when they've already been flagged as having been built is....a bad thing. 
Attachment: 
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