23-07-2002 14:06									#1
	Huts and scrolls of wisdom Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Is it possible, when popping a hut, that the scroll of wisdom contained (in case you popped one) are influenced by the tech you are actually researching.
Let me explain, in case I'm going for Alphabet and I pop, it is more likely that I get Currency, if I'm going for Pottery I get Map Mpaking and so on.
Did anyone run some test on it?

	23-07-2002 14:43									#2
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There was some debate along these lines - primarily how to avoid popping invention - and thus killing the golden goose - but i forget the outcome...

SG[1]

	23-07-2002 14:51									#3
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Well, I had this idea when surfing the Multiplay forum where, usually, the "Explorers Run" proves to be a killer. The loser is used to claim a cheat when explorers (seafaring) occur to happen around 3500-3400bc (with 2x2x) so I thought that - apart from cheating - there could be some hidden bug that triggers some links between what you're researching and what you get as Scrolls of...

	23-07-2002 18:38									#4
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I would bet it is coincidence. Many times while researching one tech, something completely unrelated pops out of a hut. E.g. researching navigation, find polytheism in a hut.

Most techs will have some connection to any other tech you can find (either they are shared prereqs for a tech two brances farther down the tree, or have a common prereq), it might be hard to show it wasn't random.


(MdS hoping nobody posts proof of influence)

	23-07-2002 18:43									#5
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all you need is the prereqs...from their i believe it to be random...the problem with playing over 1k games......

you see almost everything therefore you think it happens more often than not.....

odds are its a slim coincidence, but i thank the civ gods when i get COL out of a hut and i am already researching it :b

	23-07-2002 18:57									#6
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There have been many debates about this in the past. Every few months, someone would come up with a new theory. It depended on the year. (like Oedo year), It depended on what direction you entered the hut from, It depended on how close a city of your's was, it depended on what you or others were researching, or already had.

No claims were ever substantiated. But feel free to test these or new theories. I am always amazed when we figure something new out after all these years.

RAH

	23-07-2002 19:30									#7
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Yeah...the whole hut subject is very much a mystery. From limited tests I remember that of the 7 base techs Warrior Code and Horseback Riding appeared frequently ... the game offering early protection from barbs perhaps...but Ceremonial Burial hardly ever appeared.

We need a dedicated player to run a 1000 reloads

------------------------

SG(2)

	23-07-2002 19:52									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits We need a dedicated player to run a 1000 reloads ------------------------ SG(2)

Please do not look at me! I'm out, maybe some expert tester...
Should I use my spare time to run these tests, I will soon be an ex-boyfriend...
[ <-- my girlfriend when I play to Civ, even if she likes the game...]

	23-07-2002 20:17									#9
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From experience I'd agree that before you have any techs or even researching, warrior code and horse are the two most likely techs to receive. But after that, too many combinations to notice a pattern.

	23-07-2002 22:14									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Messer Niccolò Should I use my spare time to run these tests, I will soon be an ex-boyfriend...

... and then you'll have even more time to test. Think of what you could accomplish!

This sounds about as easy to verify as my grand idea to explain trade supply and demand over time. I'll leave that one to somebody who doesn't even have a job...

	23-07-2002 22:56									#11
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I think Oedo (or somebody else) found that, in an ordinary game (i.e., not in scenarios), you are not able to research 1/3 of the techs according to the # of techs you have. Maybe hut techs follow the same rule.

	24-07-2002 00:24									#12
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IIRC the rule is that you are never presented a tech more than twice in a row (and SlowThinker wrote a program telling you what you should be presented next turn).
About huts, my opinion is the same as Rah's: many theories, nothing verified for sure (though I remember having tested a few hundreds... not as many as the starting techs by the SGs though ... over 5000 was it? and these people have wives or girlfriends ?
IMO civ2 probably improves the sex appeal, otherwise none of us would have met a woman for years ... willing to run a test ?

	24-07-2002 02:01									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I do know one thing, it's not limited to what it will give you the option to research. My proof is that I always select ceremonial first to research. If you open no huts and research it, you will always be offered the choice of just alpha or horse. Yet if you open a hut before you finish researching ceremonial, the possible techs that you can get are not limited to those two.

RAH

	24-07-2002 03:26									#14
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Here is a test (included in my first post to Apolyton on december 11th 2000 ).
100 starts with the Aztecs; results of tipping hut #1:
58 units (31 archers, 19 horsemen, 8 chariots)
20 gold (100g=1, 50g=14, 25g=5)
21 techs (1 Alpha, 1 CerBur, 1CodeoL, 6WarCode, 4Horseb, 3 BronzeW, 2 Pot, 1 Mas, 1 Myst, 1 Writ)
... and 1 unlucky settler killed by barbs in 1500BC after having wandered that long before finding any hut to tip

	24-07-2002 20:54									#15
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Those percentage are not unexpected. I am wondering, since you can't get cities/nomads or barbs, is it 20% probablility for all of them, and if the percentage that would be allocated toward barbs or nomads is given over to units, your percentages would support that theory.

I always wondered if you didn't build a cap how long you could go before seeing barbs from a hut. Even in our no-city nomad challanges I never seemed to get to that point. Does anyone know exactly when it can first occur?

RAH

AND LF
I would also me interested to see the percentage is you just found a start with a hut in the opening screen and just opened it, reset and opened it again a 100 times.

If the percentages were drastically different, it might teach us something about huts.

	26-07-2002 01:30									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by rah I would also me interested to see the percentage is you just found a start with a hut in the opening screen and just opened it, reset and opened it again a 100 times.

One more test?
It's just like one more apple being offered to Eva
(now I know why you changed your avatar ).
But it's agreed: I shall test.

	26-07-2002 01:39									#17
	Put an end to popups!

I'd like to test this too - are there any parameters I should use, for consistency?

In other words - does anyone think map size/civ version affects hut results?

I'm certain that barbarian settings do , as does the terrain that the hut is on.

Rah, that 20% for each option seems plausible but the 20% would be modified heavily (no AT on mountains/hills or before first city founded, no barbs before first city, etc.) would it not?

STYOM

	26-07-2002 02:02									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

THe no AT on mountains, shouldn't change because you should get a nomad. On all the ones before first city, it looks like from his test that those impossible options manifest themselves as units. I always play deity raging so the empty village option never happens. We'll see after more testing

RAH

	26-07-2002 06:02									#19
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quote: Originally posted by rah We'll see after more testing RAH

Which I shall do this evening after I get out of

...work.

	26-07-2002 08:46									#20
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Love your member name, 6000

	26-07-2002 14:14									#21
	test Suffering from ads?

This test is meant to be compared with the one I made in december 2000: deity, 7 civs, raging hordes, standard map, Aztecs.
The previous test was 'restarting' (new game started as soon as one hut is tipped).
This one is 'reloading' (game saved just before tipping the first hut).

Results (reloading):
Units = 52 (24 horsemen, 20 archers, 8 chariots)
Techs = 16 (6 WarCode, 8 HorsebRid, 1 Mason, 1 Alpha)
Gold = 32 (25g = 5, 50g = 24, 100g = 3)

Previous test (restarting):
Units = 58 (19 horsemen, 31 archers, 8 chariots)
Techs = 21 (6 WarCode, 4 HorsebRid, 1 Mason, 1 Alpha,1 CerBur, 1 CodeoL, 3 BronzeW, 2 Pottery, 1 Myst, 1 Writ)
Gold = 20 (25g = 5, 50g = 14, 100g = 1)

IMO this test brings no evidence of a different sampling method being used by the programmers in case of reloading.

	26-07-2002 17:22									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Did you have a starting tech?

	26-07-2002 21:57									#23
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Starting tech = Pottery
(sorry I forgot to mention it)

	26-07-2002 22:37									#24
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Don't think I've forgotten this test - I just didn't manage to get a lot accomplished after work last night (drinks after work with friends isn't conducive to effective testing ).

In the tests I've done so far - it seems oedo year or not doesn't matter - definitely having a city down does matter...

more to come!

	27-07-2002 00:19									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man (drinks after work with friends isn't conducive to effective testing ).

Remove the friends, and it's amazing how much testing you can get done!

	27-07-2002 02:46									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

Marquis
IMO if you put two of these together, you have a nice picture of the Gits designing new strategies on friday night.

	30-07-2002 10:58									#27
	A quick update Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have tipped 850 huts - from 17 different situations, with variables in terrain, year, # of cities founded, distance from city... etc..

I'm going quietly insane No! I take that back - I'm going noisily into the land of the insane! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

OK, that feels better

There are many, many variables that come into play, so here are a few highlights:

I feel I have shown, for huts opened before 3000 BC (and perhaps later, but I haven't tested that):

1) That when no cities are founded, no tribes or nomads will emerge from huts, and units will appear in a 3:1:1 ratio with scrolls and cash.

2) That results will be the same (3:1:1 ratio units:scrolls:cash) if a hut is opened either within the squares of a city radius, or in a square adjacent to the city radius.

3) That there does not appear to be a different pattern of scroll discovery when researching alphabet, than when not researching anything.

4) That nomads do not seem to appear if a non-settler exists, but that there is no such restriction against tribes appearing when a non settler exists.

5) Tribes and non settlers seem mutually exclusive - if a situation will produce one, a reload will not produce the other. Certain terrain seems more conducive to tribes.

6) Something odd happens in certain Oedo years... but I don't know exactly what, yet. (This has consumed the bulk of my testing time)


Some of the above, a lot of you must know already. If I can come up with anything more interesting, I'll start a new thread.

STYOM

	30-07-2002 11:03									#28
	Could I BE any MORE vague? Got spare money?

Forgot to mention - the tests involved creating a series of savegames and then tipping and reloading each savegame 50 times. 100 was determined to be too many, very early on.

	30-07-2002 12:11									#29
	Re: A quick update Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Something odd happens in certain Oedo years... but I don't know exactly what, yet. (This has consumed the bulk of my testing time)STYOM

Can you expand on this point? You must be in post hut test trauma ... a serious condition

-----------------

SG(2)

	30-07-2002 13:04									#30
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Good job, STYOM
(if you want to go on testing those strange oedo years, have about one bottle of red wine handy for 200 huts : I'm sure the Gits will give you a helping hand).