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Comrade Tassadar
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Palestine? Tell me, who has dibs on the area? Go back far enough and you can have 20 different ethnic groups claim it.
And no, there is no 'culture flip' in Israel/Palestine. The territory of the Holy Land is held by one thing and one thing alone - brute force. |
And the opressed people are resisting and fighting against, which could be represented and interpruted as a "culture flip".
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No. Culture flipping is STUPID. It's ahistorical and anathema to common sense. I would suggest the issue of occupying armies has about 100 better forms of resolution before flipping. Flipping is nonsensical. |
THEN DONT PLAY THE GAME. If you dont like culture flipping and if its seriously that bad, dont play the game at all.
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Well Mr. JustGotHereInMay, |
What does date have to do with anything? I think you've already proved for me that the date that a person signed up on Apolyton has no bearing on the arguement.
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I'm here because I PAID MONEY FOR THE GAME, and I'm exercising my right to free speech |
But it sounds like you VENEMOUSLY hate it. Hate it to the point that you want to destroy Civ3 and murder Jeff. So why waste the time here when you could be going out buying another game that you do like.
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something someone using the USSR as their avatar or point of origin likely knows precious little about. |
What does that have to do with anything? If anything, I know more about freedom of speech since I've been denied it for quite a few years of my life. I dont take it for granted. Every day, I'm very thankful that I have it.
But I dont see what that has to do with anything in this arguement. It seems more like a bad attempt to make me look bad.
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Were you looking for the Civilization III - Cheerleading section? |
No, I didn't expect cheerleading, but I also didn't expect someone who hates Civ3 as much as you (apparently) do to be harassing people who DO like it, and to even be on the forums at all.
Yes, you are excersizing your right of freedom of speech. But if I hate something, I'm not going to talk about it on a forum. I wouldnt play it, I wouldnt talk about it, I wouldnt want to do anything with it. I personally would rather forget about it and move on.
I mean yeah, there are things about Civ3 that do annoy me. One of them being that when something culture flips, you lose your garrison. But I dont constantly complain about it. It's there, and since I like the game I'm just gonna have to deal with it.
But thats just me.
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Venger
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Keeper of the Can-O'Whoopass
Jan 1970
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by cyclotron7
Venger, simply because we support a game feature you do not does not make Tassadar, myself, or any other person "cheerleaders" or "fanboys," and it most certainly does not give you the right to insult us on the basis of our opinions. |
No, you don't get to pull that crap, let's be REAL clear where the 'who's opinion doesn't belong' nonsense started, and that was with Mr. "WhyAreYouHere".
Venger
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Venger
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Keeper of the Can-O'Whoopass
Jan 1970
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Tassadar5000
And the opressed people are resisting and fighting against, which could be represented and interpruted as a "culture flip". |
No, they are using bombs and terror to attempt to affect a political change. Their sheer will to have the Israeli's gone matters not one whit. Your example is poor, your support ineffectual. The West Bank will no more flip than any city in history. Move along.
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THEN DONT PLAY THE GAME. If you dont like culture flipping and if its seriously that bad, dont play the game at all. |
For a long time I didn't. See, before you showed up, there were a great number of discussions on this and many other topics related to the game. It didn't just all start when you showed up.
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What does date have to do with anything? I think you've already proved for me that the date that a person signed up on Apolyton has no bearing on the arguement. |
Bring an argument to the table that isn't based on 'so don't play it'. Because that's all you've got in your limp sack. I've addressed the point in the topic, Johnny Come Lately.
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But it sounds like you VENEMOUSLY hate it. Hate it to the point that you want to destroy Civ3 and murder Jeff. |
Boy they grow em big and dumb out on the farm huh? Murder Jeff? The rhetorical nonsense is ridiculous!
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So why waste the time here when you could be going out buying another game that you do like. |
I am not wasting my time here (in general). Why do you waste your time here when you can be playing that great game? See, stupid isn't it...
Either discuss the point at hand, or let the door smack your ass on the way out. Let's leave the 'why are you here' crap out of it.
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What does that have to do with anything? If anything, I know more about freedom of speech since I've been denied it for quite a few years of my life. I dont take it for granted. Every day, I'm very thankful that I have it. |
Then you should perhaps disassociate yourself with one of the most brutal regimes ever to stride the earth. Not alot of people here using the Third Reich as their calling card either, and with good cause...
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But I dont see what that has to do with anything in this arguement. It seems more like a bad attempt to make me look bad. |
An attempt at an aside. Using the USSR as your calling card makes you look bad pal.
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No, I didn't expect cheerleading, but I also didn't expect someone who hates Civ3 as much as you (apparently) do to be harassing people who DO like it, and to even be on the forums at all. |
Harassing people? What a baby. Do you need a diaper change? Harassing people who DO like it? Read the topic if you are even semi-fluent in English, the topic is 'culture flipping', and the content within is a discussion, pro and con. Nobody is harassing anyone, unless you count 'why are you here', which is STILL all you've brough to the table. Care to make a point soon?
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Yes, you are excersizing your right of freedom of speech. But if I hate something, I'm not going to talk about it on a forum. I wouldnt play it, I wouldnt talk about it, I wouldnt want to do anything with it. I personally would rather forget about it and move on. |
How many sheep are there in your flock? You wouldn't say anything about it? Well, that's where you and I differ, I will give my feedback, good or bad, in the community. If you've come here to give each other hugs and sing Kumbaya, you are going to be disappointed. Some people like the game more than others, some like certain features more than others, and some people will *GASP* dare speak their mind negatively on aspects they don't like.
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I mean yeah, there are things about Civ3 that do annoy me. One of them being that when something culture flips, you lose your garrison. |
Holy cow! You addressed the point! A stride taken forward...
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But I dont constantly complain about it. It's there, and since I like the game I'm just gonna have to deal with it. |
Then enjoy being one of the many fish battered on the rocks by the tides. Me, I'll struggle against the tide looking for a better outcome.
Guess so.
Venger
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Comrade Tassadar
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quote:
I think it is awesome. It brings out the best of the espionage feature and demonstrates unequivocally that if you have enough money, you can buy just about anything. |
What does it mean by 'espionage feature" and "have enough money'? Culture flipping involves none of these things!
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Papa Chubby
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Iceland
Jun 2002
time: 05:21
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Personally I believe that Culture flipping is a neccessary implementation, if added realism and complexity is what is wanted. It is certainly a somewhat shallow representation of the whole concept of your empire consisting of individual entities with an heritage and a will of their own, but it is a step in the right direction.
Another thing that I would like to adress is that most of the numbers of men in the military units is abstract. All we know about this 1 Legion, is that it is 1 Legion. Though the town was 10.000 people, it is not so unrealistic to assume that these many people backed up with a countryside in revolt, angry at the mob of sheep herders that invaded their country (Less culture). Also if we are supposed to believe that the Legions are a simpel icon of their real historical strenght. Then we must consider that that quantity changed over history.
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Colonel D.
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As I have posted recently in another forum, the biggest problem with cities switching sides is that there is utterly no warning. Moreover, what happens to my troops in the city? Did they all just throw down their arms and go home? 
As far as I'm concerned a rebellion should require a fight for political control. If I lose that fight, fine. Let the other Civ gain control of the city. But, at least give the player a chance to respond!
IMHO Civ 3 really blew it when they did away with guerrillas. How I think ANY rebellion should occur -- to include the unrest during anarchy when you're changing governments -- is as follows:
Firstly, the rebellion should begin with a city having its population slide into resistance. The more resisters, the greater chance of rebellion. If resisters are not put down over a given period of time -- say two turns -- then each resister should create one, two, or three guerrilla units. The number of guerrila units would be dependent of serveral variables, including: 1) are the resistors receiving outside help from another civ? 2) whether or not there is a police station in the city, 3) how many garrison troops are there, and 4) the degree to which the city's culture is differnt from the controlling player.
Once the guerrilla units appear, they would have the option of attacking the occupying garrison -- in which case, if they won, they'd gain control of the city, OR the guerrillas could move towards friendly territory and join forces with their home culture.
Each time a resister creates a guerrilla unit, that population point would be removed from the city. Thus, the entire population of a city could "vote with its feet" and move away. Guerrilla units would be the only military units capable of adding themselves as population points to a friendly city.
Just a thought. Anyone out there agree?
Colonel D. 
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Papa Chubby
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Iceland
Jun 2002
time: 05:21
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It sounds like a pretty good compromise, but there are still some unresolved issues. Like one of the things that makes guerrella warfare so hard to cope with for conventional forces. Is the difficulty in which is associatied with recognising the fighters from the commoner. These two parts seem to be an integrated part of the community during war, and very hard to discern one from the other.
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Colonel D.
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Pappa Chubby,
I agree that it is often a problem for conventional forces to identify guerrillas, so your point is well-taken. As I have waxed prolific in another Civ forum, however, the whole problem with Civ 3 is the entire unconventional and espionage concept is a HUGE devloution from what was so well-done in Civ 2.
Here's what I'd do to fix the situation. Firstly, give me back my diplomats and spies. I want to be able to move my spies and have them be able to "infiltrate" cities and cause all sorts of mischief as in Civ 2. How much more effective would these spies be now that we havethe concept of culture in the game?
I see spies as being instruments to foment or enhance resistance and rebellion in a city. While it is not a given that a spy would successfully infiltrate a city [see my counterintelligence ideas below] if the spy does successfully "infiltrate" the city the city popup screen appears -- although each of its fields of information would be blank. Once here, the spy may gather intelligence (clicking on a field tol reveal what's there -- i.e., all city improvements or the population happiness, for example).
Once a field is revealed the spy may simply leave with that information, or attempt to do more -- at greater risk, of course. In terms of fomenting rebellion, the spy would have to risk being caught while contacting a population point. The more happy the population point, the higher the risk of being caught. Thus, if there are members of the population already in resistance, they would rarely turn in the spy.
Once contact is made with one of the population points a dialogue box would appear with a range of options. The low end would be to move that population point from content to unhappy, or unhappy to resistance -- reflecting agitation and propaganda efforts.
A more risky option would be to seek to get that population point to perform sabotage in the square in which it works -- destroying any tile improvements there. Still another option would be to plant an arms cache there -- (see guerrilla units below).
If any resistors are already in the city, the spy would have several other options available to it. Firstly, the spy could attempt to recruit a terrorist cell. That cell would appear as a unit adjacent to the city (and would only be able to move within the area controlled by that city). The terrorist unit would only be visible to a spy or specialized military/security units. The terrorist unit would be able to perform bombardment missions on its own or any other square controlled by the city. Attacking and destroying a terrorist unit will risk pushing the population point that created it into full rebellion -- a point deeper than resistance.
Rebellion would be yet another option for the spy, albeit one that is very risky. If successful, the rebelling population point would be removed from the city and one, two or three guerrilla units would be created. The number of units created would be a factor of the level of city security (a minus factor) and the number of arms caches available ( a positive factor).
Guerrillas operate as any other conventional unit would EXCEPT they would have the option to retreat after any single round of combat. Moreover, they would never pay any movement penalties for any terrain they moved through or over. Because guerrillas are part of the people, each time a guerrilla unit is attacked there is a chance more people will move from content to unhappy or from unhappy to resistance.
Guerrillas would have an additional defensive bonus in forests, jungles, and swamps and they would be able to be added as a population point to any city of the nation supporting it -- if they could get to those cities. The Guerrillas would have a very low offensive capability, however.
Counterintelligence capability would be the principal defense against spies. Firstly, friendly spies in a city would each have a chance to detect and attack any enemy spy seeking to infiltrate that city. These friendly spies would have their capabilities enhanced by having a police station in the city. This attack would be as normal combat is resolved between conventional military units. [Could play a James Bond theme song during the exchange of pistol shots!] Secondly, spies could attempt to uncover arms caches by interrogating a population point. Each interrogation runs the risk of further alienating/angering that population point, but may uncover an arms cache -- which would automatically be destroyed if/when found.
Spies could also attempt to assassinate the governor. If successful, the probability of a city going into rebellion would increase dramatically -- with each resistor moving into open rebellion and guerrillas poping up everywhere. Or a spy could simply attempt to perform the old sabotage mission herself -- blowing up a city improvement, construction project, and so on.
Also in another thread I mentioned the ability of spies performing lasing missions for stealth bombers -- increasing the probability the bomb(s) will not miss.
As you can see, there is much, much more that could be done with this. Bottom Line is: a city never simply flips to a new owner, but goes into rebellion and is more susceptible to being conquered by conventional or unconventional means.
Colonel D.
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GI Josh
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Zouave is Coracle . . . is also Venger? If not, how is it possible for there two be two such unique styles of . . . argument?
CF is a great concept - needs some slight tweaks. It's the "suddenness" of the flip that really unnerves people. Should be a 1-3 turn intermediate phase of civil disorder, during which time for each resisting citizen, there is a chance of the following: produce guerilla (unit with high defense, explorer type mvmt, low offense, invisible flag); destroy city improvements; destroy tile improvements; destroy/flip a military unit within the 21 square city radius (not just within the actual city). After at least one turn - during which you get messages like "Revolting citizens in Satsuma attacked our infantry!" or "Guerrilla acitivity near New York!" - the city can then flip and the remaining garrison is destroyed. Take away the suddenness, which is what makes it seem arbitrary, and I think even Coracle/Zouave/Venger would not object to it.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming
Uhhhh... what did I say about sticking to the topic  |
What do you mean, when talking about CF, surely talking about Coracle is on topic, no? Without him this thread is about to die... It is not really the first of its kind, these seem to come in bursts... one guy starts it off, another wants to give some reason why he was wrong, Coracle jumps in and flames them all, and all of a sudden there are 50 more responses and 5 more threads on the same thing.
Everybody has given his opinion at least a few times already, this is just repeating arguments. This was a relatively good thread (see? I'm already talking in the past tense here ), as we could see one of Coracle's examples.. now he's gone, and the topic has gone with him.
On topic again (as much as this is possible): Go Borg!
DeepO
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25-07-2002 10:28
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