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whosurdaddy
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New York
Jun 2001
time: 00:21
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Down with culture flipping. I don't get how it is not considered an act of war to annex large swaths of another nations territory using "cultural" means.
I consider culture flipping to be such a disgusting concept that even when AI cities flip to me, I TURN THEM DOWN.
Just cause the programmers (a very talented group) decided to put this feature in the game, does that automatically mean it is good, and that I should just play with this feature and love it no matter what?
As i've said several times, I could design the game to have pink elephants that randomly appear in the game that can destroy whole cities, and sure ... I could prolly learn how to play the game and deal with these pink elephants so that they dont destroy my civ, but that doesnt mean having pink elephants in the game is fun or that it even makes any sense.
If the problem is, that there needs to be more peaceful ways of attaining victory in the game, then that is fine, there are other ways to do it besides the silly idea of whole cities suddenly flipping sides.
For goodness sakes, would it kill you guys if it became a slider where we could control the rate of this occurence in our games. ISNT THIS WHY WE HAVE A RULES EDITOR, CAUSE SOME LIKE TO PLAY USING DIFFERENT RULES THAN OTHERS??? It doesnt mean we dont know how to play the game .....
Last edited by whosurdaddy on 24-07-2002 at 11:38
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by miccofl
Less than an hour, I’m impressed!  |
Well, Coracle runs a perl script in the background, that constantly scans the 'Poly forums for the word "flipping" and rings, when it found it. The fact, that he needed a full hour for his post, shows only that he must have been absent.
On topic: For me, it's "a part of the game" (vote). I like the idea, but don't like its implementation. Emigration should be implemented by a loss of population in the border city, and only cities of size 1 should be allowed to flip, if at all. Anyway, I can live with it and can handle it, but I don't like it much.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by whosurdaddy
Just cause the programmers (a very talented group) decided to put this feature in the game, does that automatically mean it is good, and that I should just play with this feature and love it no matter what?
As i've said several times, I could design the game to have pink elephants that randomly appear in the game that can destroy whole cities, and sure ... I could prolly learn how to play the game and deal with these pink elephants so that they dont destroy my civ, but that doesnt mean having pink elephants in the game is fun or that it even makes any sense. |
Ah, the pink elephants thingy again... seems to be spreading over... the third thread enjoying them...
Look, the pink elephants would be considered a stupidity by everyone, while flipping is hated by not so many (although considered suboptimal implementation by many). I did my best to summarize reasons for not taking the flips out of the game in another pinky elephant thread - see my answer there: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...684#post1149684
The reason for opposing your wish to have it as a slider is that the majority would like to see Firaxis doing different things that creating a flipping slider for you and Coracle. For me, reimplementing the flips in a bit different way would be MUCH better than creating a slider. Being a programmer myself I know how risky it is to change the code that is working - you are very likely to introduce bugs that were not there before... Therefore, I would like to see Firaxis to focus on things that are really worth their efforts, rather then having them hotfixing flipping sliders...
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Coracle
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Yesterday I lost NINE military units (including six full strength veteran legionaries) when a town of '1' just across my former border flipped. They vanished into thin air.
The game ended at that point as I just lost all my offensive units and almost half my military. Three more hours wasted.
I have seen reports of a town of '2' Flipping even with 17 military in it.
Why does this happen? Some idiotic and arbitrary "formula" Soren dreamed up. Knowing Civ 3, there is also probably in part another anti-human AI cheat involved..
I will not waste my time spending hours on a game only to see half my military magically disappear in one of these ridiculous flips. Nor will I accept borders flipping over my strategic resources at which point I am expected to meekly walk away from them.
You like bullbleep? Enjoy yourselves. It is unacceptable to me on many levels.
"Part of the game"? Whatever crap Soren serves up is OK, huh? No sale. If a realtor sold me a house with termites I wouldn't say "it's part of the house". It is a BUG; even if Soren planned for it it is a bug because it screws up the game mechanics, is the opposite of realism, and is intenesely irritating.
I went into Editor, the Culture section, and changed every resistance rating down to nothing. Perhaps that will have an effect on this nonsense. We shall see. If not, EU2 here I come.
Last edited by Coracle on 24-07-2002 at 14:44
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Coracle
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Post a save?
Plenty of examples have been posted on CFF of such in the past. A fellow named "Lt Killer M" posted a similar example, and here is the link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...?threadid=26738
All I have left are screenshots.
Here is the garrison:
 Attachment: giza.jpg
This has been downloaded 502 time(s).
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Coracle
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Next turn, POOF! Gone. Game over.
It is such a load of bullbleep.
Attachment: giza2.jpg
This has been downloaded 487 time(s).
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
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Coracle, stop using faulty examples. I'm glad you posted the screenshots: you have not 1, but 1 citizen+7 foreign tiles in there. Further did you just captured that city, and was the citizens still resisting? that counts double... 9 already. Against 8 units of your own it would still be a slim chance, so I can only guess you have very little culture as opposed to the Egyptians. If I can make the guess that her culture is twice yours, you would need 36 units to fully counter the flip chances, putting 8 in is just stupid. Don't blame it on the game, it is your own fault you have lost that force.
Of course it would have flipped, with the city so close to her capital, that would be an 8% chance or so (still guessing at twice the culture, it can become much worse when your culture is worse). With these rates, you can expect that city to flip in just a few turns...
DeepO
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MosesPresley
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BP
Last edited by MosesPresley on 26-07-2002 at 05:08
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Venger
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Keeper of the Can-O'Whoopass
Jan 1970
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Coracle, stop using faulty examples. |
What is faulty about it? Nothing. Hell, it HAPPENED in the middle east, didn't see Gaza returned because of culture did you?
quote:
I'm glad you posted the screenshots: you have not 1, but 1 citizen+7 foreign tiles in there. Further did you just captured that city, and was the citizens still resisting? that counts double... 9 already. Against 8 units of your own it would still be a slim chance, so I can only guess you have very little culture as opposed to the Egyptians. If I can make the guess that her culture is twice yours, you would need 36 units to fully counter the flip chances, putting 8 in is just stupid. Don't blame it on the game, it is your own fault you have lost that force. |
What a load of crap. You're telling me you garrison a size 1 city with 36 units? It's a SIZE ONE CITY. God almighty have you ever played any other Civ style game? If I can take the city with three legions, I should be able to HOLD THE CITY with three legions. At what point did they commandeer your common sense?
quote:
Of course it would have flipped, with the city so close to her capital, that would be an 8% chance or so (still guessing at twice the culture, it can become much worse when your culture is worse). With these rates, you can expect that city to flip in just a few turns...
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How about a size one city with 9 Roman legions in it NOT FLIP AT ALL?
I've humored from the get-go of Civ3 the lengths you dimbulbs will go to defend Civ like some sacred cow. Culture flipping is unrealistic, unfun, and unreasonable. If the Indians can't hold the city, then they shouldn't get it back for free. Enough freaking said.
Venger
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Comrade Tassadar
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It's late here, so forgive any atrocities I may commit.
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
What is faulty about it? Nothing. Hell, it HAPPENED in the middle east, didn't see Gaza returned because of culture did you? |
But then again, a lot of Israel (or rightfully Palestine) is flipping back to Palestine because they are two different cultures.
quote:
What a load of crap. You're telling me you garrison a size 1 city with 36 units? It's a SIZE ONE CITY. God almighty have you ever played any other Civ style game? If I can take the city with three legions, I should be able to HOLD THE CITY with three legions. At what point did they commandeer your common sense? |
Just because you can take something doesnt mean you can hold it.
quote:
How about a size one city with 9 Roman legions in it NOT FLIP AT ALL? |
I would agree to that. Would you likewise agree to the chance of culture flipping rising as the city size increases?
quote:
I've humored from the get-go of Civ3 the lengths you dimbulbs will go to defend Civ like some sacred cow. Culture flipping is unrealistic, unfun, and unreasonable. If the Indians can't hold the city, then they shouldn't get it back for free. Enough freaking said. |
If you dont like the game, and you dont like the people who do like the game, then it all begs one question: Why are you here in the Civilization III forums at all?
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Venger
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Keeper of the Can-O'Whoopass
Jan 1970
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Tassadar5000
But then again, a lot of Israel (or rightfully Palestine) is flipping back to Palestine because they are two different cultures. |
Palestine? Tell me, who has dibs on the area? Go back far enough and you can have 20 different ethnic groups claim it.
And no, there is no 'culture flip' in Israel/Palestine. The territory of the Holy Land is held by one thing and one thing alone - brute force.
quote:
Just because you can take something doesnt mean you can hold it. |
My failure to hold it should be a result of proactive actions by the enemy, not a passive delay as 'culture' works it's magic.
quote:
I would agree to that. Would you likewise agree to the chance of culture flipping rising as the city size increases? |
No. Culture flipping is STUPID. It's ahistorical and anathema to common sense. I would suggest the issue of occupying armies has about 100 better forms of resolution before flipping. Flipping is nonsensical.
quote:
If you dont like the game, and you dont like the people who do like the game, then it all begs one question: Why are you here in the Civilization III forums at all? |
Well Mr. JustGotHereInMay, I'm here because I PAID MONEY FOR THE GAME, and I'm exercising my right to free speech, something someone using the USSR as their avatar or point of origin likely knows precious little about. Were you looking for the Civilization III - Cheerleading section?
Venger
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24-07-2002 05:12
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