25-07-2002 03:52									#1
	Enough already! Suffering from ads?

Please, people, please, I am, and I believe most others are, sick and tired of all of these constitutional questions. Can't we just go by common sense? All of these problems only exist if you think about them. For example, instead of debating whether or not the Constitution could be changed instead of just added on to, the people who thought it was confusing could have just written their own version of the Constitution, which would be unofficial, on the forum with only the active parts included, and asked the mods to top it. Problems about succession during impeachment need never arrive - the situations will likely never happen, and if they do we can decide then, when we know the particulars of the situation. We shouldn't be thinking too much about the structure of the game - we should be HAVING FUN.

	25-07-2002 03:55									#2
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I don't often agree with skywalker. But this time, he told brilliantly what I think.

I hope other people who are tired with constitutional bickering will tell it here. Some people don't see how boring this is.

	25-07-2002 03:56									#3
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Well, part of the fun of the Democracy Game is in the roleplaying that it allows. And I think that, to some, having an elaborate and well-amended Code of Laws IS a fairly big part of that roleplaying. There's naturally going to be debate about it, but there's always debate when a democratic system is used for anything. It's another one of those things we can't prevent, like party alignment. These are things we just have to learn to live with.

	25-07-2002 03:56									#4
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We may be in for a firestorm of flak, but I kind of agree, Skywalker. I guess all the constitutional stuff is important. And it's going to be rockiest in the early stages of the game, as we set up and then tinker with the structure of the game.
But sheesh ....

	25-07-2002 04:05									#5
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This bickering isn't roleplaying.

	25-07-2002 04:21									#6
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skywalker has a good point. Some is good. There is just too much going on. Impeachment, ya, I can see that being important. I am the only one so far in my opinion polls to say "DO NOT ALLOW IMPEACHMENT". Just wait the next couple of weeks. But the extent of the minutia being debated....it is extream.

Then when you add in the other topics - should anyone be able to vote. should we have a census. should the constitution/col be rewritten to make it easier to read. should we just kill everyone and send their heads to the next of kin. Come on folks.

I think we need more turnchats (every 2-3 days) like spiffor recomended elsware, to keep the game moving and give people something else to talk about.

	25-07-2002 04:30									#7
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing I think we need more turnchats (every 2-3 days) like spiffor recomended elsware, to keep the game moving and give people something else to talk about.

Great idea. More turnchats would allow people to bring up ideas that they want to talk about more often then posting a poll we have seen a million times, or a poll of somehitng that is ridiculous.

	25-07-2002 04:32									#8
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I agree with too much. I have said this about polls before. And I believe it is one reason we have so few that actively particitpate. TMI = Too much information. The game, I was led to believe (and HOPE), was for FUN. I can't make most turnchats since I work a job during the turnchat hours, but I do post and vote. Yet, I still get turned off sometimes with all the TMI. That's why I don't read the election campaign or election poll threads. I vote for the person based on their posts in the rest of the DG. I also don't always read the poll threads, other than the issue post, since it can get out of hand easily.

I know we need certain things; I appreciate that; I also appreciate, well accept it, that early on, we will have lots of this stuff going on.

I will second, third, whatever more frequent turnchats.

	25-07-2002 07:49									#9
	Tired of ads?

I not only agree, but posted pretty much this same thing in the Senate thread a while ago.

	25-07-2002 08:14									#10
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Well I've been one of the people disscussing all these issues. However, I would be the first to admit I'd rather be talking about the actual game. Its just that nothing is happening to talk about. I also suggested at least doing a turnchat a day and recieved no response what so ever. I again beg the minsters and President to give us something to talk about, so we can get interest up and the game moving. This is the reason i suspect for the drop in interest in this game. We NEED to play more and talk less.
Aggie

	25-07-2002 08:31									#11
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I don't see why those who are posting on these boards choose ONLY to post in the Judicial/Constitutional threads... there ARE other threads! You are more than welcome to bump them back onto page one!

These things wouldn't be dominating the first page if people weren't interested enough in posting to them, and therefore bumping them up. Interest begets interest. Popular items get more attention, and more attention makes things more popular. That is the nature of forums like these. (You could even say, the invisible hand).

Justa few days ago, we had a few threads about whether or not to explore, galleys, colonizing Uber Island vs consolidating our continent first, the machiavelli institute, diplomacy, the map, geopraphy, the next target after america, etc... and more!

The new geopolitical situation had at least five threads dominating the first page for a while - and all the Constitutional stuff was bumped down. It happens in cycles. Relax.

If it bugs you that much, go start another thread. Or bump an old one.

As for me, whatever you (collectively) put on the front page, I'll read and post to if I find it interesting. Otherwise, I'll make a new thread - which reminds me... if I've got enough time tonight...

	25-07-2002 08:33									#12
	Put an end to popups!

... or instead of starting a new thread, people might leave too.. I forgot to mention that other consequence of not having something that interests everyone...

	25-07-2002 09:23									#13
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I am having fun. I think the constitutional questions are interesting.

	25-07-2002 09:25									#14
	Re: Enough already! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Please, people, please, I am, and I believe most others are, sick and tired of all of these constitutional questions. Can't we just go by common sense? All of these problems only exist if you think about them. For example, instead of debating whether or not the Constitution could be changed instead of just added on to, the people who thought it was confusing could have just written their own version of the Constitution, which would be unofficial, on the forum with only the active parts included, and asked the mods to top it. Problems about succession during impeachment need never arrive - the situations will likely never happen, and if they do we can decide then, when we know the particulars of the situation. We shouldn't be thinking too much about the structure of the game - we should be HAVING FUN.

Oh HELL yeah!


We have enough of a Constitution to play the game. We have a judiciary to deal with problems if and when they arise. We are confirming their choice as those we can trust to do what is needed. What-ifs are now useless.

And if this doesn't stop ppl making those threads - make sure you don't post there as further protest.

Maybe we should make a No Unnecessary BS Party?

OK. Maybe that's too far.

	25-07-2002 11:19									#15
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Maybe we can make an amendment that prevents spamming of the forum with constitutional bickering. Just joking.

I think the debating is entertaining, otherwise I wouldn't do it. However, I would rather talk about the game, though, most of the talk has been blown through just a day or two after a turn chat. So having more frequent turn chats would definately keep me talking about the game, instead of fighting over the proper process of cleaning official Apolytonian latreens, as dictated by the CoL.

Kman

	25-07-2002 12:10									#16
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Skywalker, you are correct!

Let's also have a turnchat every 2 days. It may be possible that ministers can't make it there, but they should appoint someone to replace them.

	25-07-2002 13:49									#17
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You have my full support skywalker ! This game is on the best way from a Democracy to a Bureaucracy game.

• No further constitutional amendments, they suck the fun out of the game like a leech.
  
• No sophisticated laws discussion in the style of a hedge advocate.
  
• No complicated polls, they don't attract people but rather repell them.
  
• No useless bills of right and stuff like this .
  

	25-07-2002 13:53									#18
	Tired of ads?

Personally I believe that these constitutional issues are not the funniest things that we can do, but unfortunately they are neccesary. Everybody wanted the election process to be sharpened after the unbelievable turnout in the presidential election.

	25-07-2002 14:03									#19
	Suffering from ads?

Maybe you could add a subforum for constitutional debatte. this would satisfy the constitution mongers and the gameplay-mongers. if the constitutional debatte subforum (call it debatte-club or something) comes to a proposal, they can post 1(!) for the topic in the normal forum ;-)

	25-07-2002 14:05									#20
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message of phoenatica:
thats why we implemented subforums. we could seperate the "important" stuff for gameplay and the roleplay-stuff from each other. the government forum only hold important information, with crosslinks to important citizen discussions. the poll subforum contains all polls and the citizen subforum hold the "rest".
i could imagine even better ways of "splitting the traffic", but we didnt get more than 3 subforums.

anyway you choose to go: you may spoil some ppl of. with the subforums, you maybe hold more ppl in the game that with forcing to stop discussion on some topics.

	25-07-2002 18:37									#21
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disorganizer is right. We need subforums!

	25-07-2002 19:20									#22
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Talk to MarkG. It was asked for. It was denied. So sayith the "Trip".

(they would be nice)

	25-07-2002 21:33									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph You have my full support skywalker ! This game is on the best way from a Democracy to a Bureaucracy game. No further constitutional amendments, they suck the fun out of the game like a leech. No sophisticated laws discussion in the style of a hedge advocate. No complicated polls, they don't attract people but rather repell them. No useless bills of right and stuff like this . Let's play the game and have fun, not work.

Nothing more to say.
BTW, BigFurryMonster, I agree with a turnchat every 2 days.

	25-07-2002 22:26									#24
	Re: Re: Enough already! Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Maybe we should make a No Unnecessary BS Party?

I'll GLADLY join.

	25-07-2002 22:30									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Aro I agree with a turnchat every 2 days.

me too

	25-07-2002 22:34									#26
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Every two days would be a bit much IMO. Unless, of course you want the Ministers making all the decisions?

2 days would not leave time for them to poll the public between turns, that is for sure. And don't get me started on appointing replacements...

	25-07-2002 23:26									#27
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If we could just get the results from the long anticipated war with the Americans, I think everyone would start talking more about the actual game. The last couple of threads about future plans (I think Plan Demain is one of those threads) have died down with the line "...but let's wait to see how the attack on America turns out." All this constitutional stuff is the forum equivilent of twiddling our thumbs, IMHO.

	26-07-2002 00:18									#28
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every 2 days is too many

	26-07-2002 00:26									#29
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I think every 3 days is better. We could have a life in some of our evenings / afternoons / mornings
But a lower turnchat frequency will make the game as boring as this week.

	26-07-2002 01:09									#30
	Re: Enough already! Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Please, people, please, I am, and I believe most others are, sick and tired of all of these constitutional questions. *snip* We shouldn't be thinking too much about the structure of the game - we should be HAVING FUN.

I also completely agree with this!

Hey, maybe we should make an official poll about it?

only joking!