25-07-2002 18:26									#1
	What units need upgrades? Inflate your Upload Space

What old units are still in the build list when you get into modern age?

I'm trying to mod my bic and cant remember how meny units like swordmen stay in the list!

	25-07-2002 18:35									#2
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Longbowman

	25-07-2002 18:37									#3
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we should have mounted-longbowmen
I'll make these upgrade to musketmen or somthing like that!

	25-07-2002 18:44									#4
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A better one would be Rifleman. It requires no resources so there'll never be a chance of the Longbowman etc. reappearing in your list. Also, bow and arrow/sword units were still used more or less effectively against Musketmen historically, due to the amount of time it took to reload the guns. But they didn't stand much of a chance against Riflemen.

PS There is a pretty good graphic of a Horse Archer kicking around.

	25-07-2002 22:27									#5
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I know cavalry (and therefore cossacks) stay in the list, so do ironclads

	25-07-2002 22:40									#6
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Same with Frigates. I've set Transport, with no Oil, as my modern upgrade for my sea units. That won't give me a huge advantage over the AI, but gets the others out of my list. Cavalry I'm allowing to upgrade to Marines.

	25-07-2002 22:53									#7
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i made all old ships cept galleons upgrade to destroyers! Cuz in real life navys have loads of destroyers and use them as the backbone of a fleet!

	26-07-2002 01:23									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Krayzeenbk I know cavalry (and therefore cossacks) stay in the list, so do ironclads

But Cavalry can be usefull , even after getting Tanks.

Those 3 points of movment sometimes come handy.

	26-07-2002 01:34									#9
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i might make cavalry upgrade to Mech infantry!

	26-07-2002 01:54									#10
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quote: Originally posted by HazieDaVampire i might make cavalry upgrade to Mech infantry!

Or modern armor - they are offensive units after all.

	26-07-2002 04:26									#11
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Mech infantry is offensive in real life, them M2A2's used in the graphic only have a 20mm machine cannon, it would take a while to take out a normal tank with that! I suppose they do have AT missles but thats not gunna last as long as a tanks cannon would!

	26-07-2002 09:39									#12
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I remember talking with a Bradley Crewman not to long ago, a Sergeant First Class I believe, and he said that in battle a Bradley crew has a lifespan of about 40-50 seconds if unseen and a little over 10 if seen. The 20mm in the turrent is ment as a anti-infantry weapon.

	26-07-2002 15:15									#13
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Hense why it should be offensive!

You should see the British Scimitar, its got a 20mm cannon, and a mini gun to the right of that! Hasn't got any AT missles, but its supposed to be used as a recon tank so it has no real use for them!

	26-07-2002 15:16									#14
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i was actualy planning on getting a job in one of those!
Or a Challenger 2 tank, or i might just become a cop. You never see poor cops!

	26-07-2002 20:51									#15
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Keep in mind a couple things guys.

1) Many of the units not upgrading were done so for play balance. The shift towards technology following Cavalry is used to make sure that players have to re-tool their military in order to keep it up-to-date. Making Cavalry upgradeable to Tanks, Marines, whatever will make the game unbalanced in that respect, and encourage the "power in 1000 BC, superpower in 1000 AD" problem.

2) Units flagged as offensive will always attack, and units flagged as defensive will always defend. Try not to mix these up much. For example, upgrading Longbowmen (an offensive unit) to Riflemen (a defensive unit) will mean that the upgraded AI Riflemen will go on suicidal charges, when it should be Cavalry/Tanks in that position.

The point is: keep play balance and AI useage in mind when you change units upgradability. The AI is not too keen when it comes to upgrading units ASAP, and once they do, if the offensive/defensive flags are messed up when you take the stats into account, the AI won't even notice.

	26-07-2002 23:16									#16
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i see, anyways, i think Longbowmen should be defensive. The only time they'd actualy get to attack would be in a chivalry style battle!

	26-07-2002 23:39									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Trip 2) Units flagged as offensive will always attack, and units flagged as defensive will always defend. Try not to mix these up much. For example, upgrading Longbowmen (an offensive unit) to Riflemen (a defensive unit) will mean that the upgraded AI Riflemen will go on suicidal charges, when it should be Cavalry/Tanks in that position.

So, what is better:
Suicide Longbomen in modern age or suicide Riflemen?

I guess Rilfemen.
Still, to compensate, with MODed attack of 5.


P.S.
Even in original rules, Rilfemen have offense AI flag.
Soren explained that it was done in order to lower number of longbowmen in mored age.

	27-07-2002 01:06									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Keep in mind a couple things guys. 1) Many of the units not upgrading were done so for play balance. The shift towards technology following Cavalry is used to make sure that players have to re-tool their military in order to keep it up-to-date. Making Cavalry upgradeable to Tanks, Marines, whatever will make the game unbalanced in that respect, and encourage the "power in 1000 BC, superpower in 1000 AD" problem.

Granted, but I for one don't want to see my build list cluttered up with obsolete units I have absolutely no use for. And I also want to make sure that the AI doesn't end up building a Longbowmen in the Industrial era.

And I don't see much of a difference whether I'm disbanding a unit for some extra shields, or having to pay out gold to upgrade them. In fact, considering how much it costs to upgrade a Longbowmen to a Rifleman, I'm probably losing out by paying for it, as opposed to disbanding. It certainly takes a big chunk out of my treasury!

quote: 2) Units flagged as offensive will always attack, and units flagged as defensive will always defend. Try not to mix these up much. For example, upgrading Longbowmen (an offensive unit) to Riflemen (a defensive unit) will mean that the upgraded AI Riflemen will go on suicidal charges, when it should be Cavalry/Tanks in that position.

That's not how it works. If I upgrade a Longbowmen to a Rifleman, it's going to use the flags of the Rifleman, not blend the two. You don't end up with some hybrid. All the previous flags are replaced by those of the new unit, and the AI will use them the way they're set up in the editor.

	27-07-2002 02:04									#19
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i've made all the old ships upgrade to destroyers! That was with realism and gameplay in mind!

	27-07-2002 02:10									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Willem That's not how it works. If I upgrade a Longbowmen to a Rifleman, it's going to use the flags of the Rifleman, not blend the two. You don't end up with some hybrid. All the previous flags are replaced by those of the new unit, and the AI will use them the way they're set up in the editor.

That's not what Soren said...

	27-07-2002 02:18									#21
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thats mad then!

	27-07-2002 03:26									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Trip That's not what Soren said...

Well allowing Longbowmen to upgrade to Riflemen was one of the first things I changed, along with Swordsman, many months ago. And I don't recall ever seeing an AI Rifleman in an offensive role. So obviously those choices pose no problems, regardless of what Soren says.

	27-07-2002 05:18									#23
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In fact, it doesn't matter since Riflemen from 1.21f has also offense AI flag enabeld too.

And you know why it was enabled?
To prevent AI from build Longbowmen too much.

And I don't see problem with making them upgradeable.
It least they could be usefull.

	27-07-2002 07:50									#24
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I still wonder - will units work properly if they have got both the defensive and the offensive flags?

	27-07-2002 10:27									#25
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According to someone from Firaxis, Mike I believe, yes they will. Apparently if the AI has a choice, it will choose one or the other and stick with it. So if it chooses defensive, the unit won't just suddenly switch to offensive. At least that's the way I've been reading it.