26-07-2002 22:27									#1
	Where are these "raging" barbarians? Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm playing my fourth or fifth game now. The first few games I played at Chieftain level. Right now I'm trying Monarch. In all my games, however, I've chosen "Raging Hordes" for the barbarian level. However, I have yet to see any really significant barbarian presence.

I do take out the settlements as soon as they appear (frequently using mil advisor to tell me where they are), but I have never encountered more than two barbarians in any one turn, never more than one settlement on the map at one time, and all the barbarians I've seen have come from the settlements (no pop-ups like in Civ2).

Where are these "Raging Hordes"? I'm getting more of a "Whimpering Trickle"! And what the heck is the point of having all the barbarian galleys if they don't land troops? They just take up my time moving around making my turns take longer. Never once have they been in a place that even annoyed me (that is, they've never been in my way other than to just watch them mindlessly rowing about).

What am I doing wrong???

Show me the barbarians!

	26-07-2002 22:33									#2
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If you want a horde, leave their encampments alone. By attacking them immediately you're nullifying the effect. The galleys cant start an encampment on land that is within a civ's borders so they just row around looking for a spot to land on

	26-07-2002 22:45									#3
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH If you want a horde, leave their encampments alone.

Ok, that's realistic. (sorry, my barb [no pun intended] is not aimed at you, just at this situation).

So the only way to have a realistic (or at least challenging) level of barbarians is to treat them unrealisticly. That's disappointing.

quote: The galleys cant start an encampment on land that is within a civ's borders so they just row around looking for a spot to land on

I've seen tons of galleys along unclaimed borders. Never once have I seen a barbarian galley land troops. Have you?

	26-07-2002 23:06									#4
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No, you'll never see the galleys land troops. They are shy, and will only land in squares that are not in line-of-sight (black or dimly lit on the main map).

	26-07-2002 23:20									#5
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quote: Originally posted by DaveV No, you'll never see the galleys land troops. They are shy, and will only land in squares that are not in line-of-sight (black or dimly lit on the main map).

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. So you're saying they actually do carry troops, and they do land those troops, but never in sight? Thus if a galley comes around, and you kill it before it lands troops then there will be fewer barbarians to fight?

	26-07-2002 23:25									#6
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Want a barbarian challange? Try these settings in the editor:

-Change regular barbarian unit from Warrior to Swordsman.

-Change Advanced Barbarian Unit from Horseman to Knight.

-Change barbarian Sea Unit from Galley to Caravel.

-Within difficulty settings, change "combat bonus vs barbarians" = 0.

Now with the barbarian level at Raging Hordes, they will appear more often. The computer likes to go on barbarian search-and-destroy missions, but with the barbarian units much stronger and without a combat bonus, many more barbarian camps will survive for you to encounter. Just wait for the first massive uprising. There are few things scarier than to see 20-30 knights pouring over your border as soon as you reach feudalism.

This should spice up your games a bit. They've been my standard barbarian settings forever.

	26-07-2002 23:28									#7
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If you patrol the coast areas outside your borders they wont land troops/encampments.

Whether you get barbarian problems is a factor of how fast you and the other civs expand to fill the landmass. Its harder to do that on the pangea-type maps and when you have slower growing cities (and therefore less settlers).

	26-07-2002 23:30									#8
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Within difficulty settings, change "combat bonus vs barbarians" = 0.

YES, Everyone should definitely do this!!

JB,
President of the Equal Combat Rights to Barbarians Society

	26-07-2002 23:38									#9
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quote: Originally posted by N. Machiavelli -Change regular barbarian unit from Warrior to Swordsman. -Change Advanced Barbarian Unit from Horseman to Knight.

But this seems to make the barbarians too strong. I can fight a bunch of warriors with my one warrior (if I choose my ground well), but swordsman against warriors seems unbalanced.

I didn't say I wanted to lose against barbarians...

quote: Now with the barbarian level at Raging Hordes, they will appear more often.

You mean because they will survive the AI's better so more of them get to me?

quote: Just wait for the first massive uprising.

I've heard people mention an "uprising". What is this? When do they happen? Or are you just talking about a lot of barbarians due to unmolested settlements?

	26-07-2002 23:52									#10
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If you leave the encampments alone (either on purpose or because of other circumsatnces) they will generate a few warriors then horsemen. If left alone for long enough they generate a massive uprising (I think the chances are higher with "raging") this can consist of upto 30 horsemen (I've never seen more) in one massive stack. In one GOTM I was attacked by 3 such stacks!

	26-07-2002 23:57									#11
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quote: Originally posted by RedBird I've heard people mention an "uprising". What is this? When do they happen? Or are you just talking about a lot of barbarians due to unmolested settlements?

Don't worry, you WILL notice it when it comes!
Your military advisor will warn you at the start of a turn ("Barbarian Uprising").

What is it, just 24 horse in one stack with Raging Hordes. You might just get one, but I have heard of as many as THREE stacks. Of course, they all appear at once!
They don't appear to you in every game, but are great fun. Maybe they only appeared to the AI players, I don't know. Some people just remove all the garrison from the nearest town and let them loot it, though they might just take the women and children, instead. After they have looted a town they (poof) disappear.

Don't forget, Within difficulty settings, change "combat bonus vs barbarians" to 0.

JB,
President of the Equal Combat Rights to Barbarians Society

[Edit: took too long to compose, so redundant info included. They occur at the time the 2nd civ advances to a new age, per Soren.]

	26-07-2002 23:58									#12
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH If you leave the encampments alone (either on purpose or because of other circumsatnces) they will generate a few warriors then horsemen. If left alone for long enough they generate a massive uprising (I think the chances are higher with "raging") this can consist of upto 30 horsemen

You mean that in one turn the barbarian encampment will put out 30 horsemen, or just that over time you'll end up with 30 horsemen?

	27-07-2002 00:05									#13
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The uprising occur, IIRC, upon the ancient/medieval changeover (once 2 civs hit the Medieval Age). If you have allowed the encampments to survive, you will have hordes of horsemen breathing down your neck.

Barb galleys, AFAIK, do not carry any troops. They merely sail around looking for ships to attack (and lose to). Encampments only pop up in the fog of war, so as the world becomes more and more settled, there will eventually be no place for them. As mentioned, the AI always knows where the encampments are and devotes several units (per civ) to hunting them.

-Arrian

	27-07-2002 00:10									#14
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quote: Originally posted by RedBird You mean that in one turn the barbarian encampment will put out 30 horsemen, or just that over time you'll end up with 30 horsemen?

As Jaybe said, each encampment will put out 24 horsemen on "raging." Sometimes, however, two such stacks may merge on their way to the nearest city, resulting in 48 in one stack.

The best option is to remove the barb combat bonus. Or play at the difficulty level where there is none (but of course the AI always plays on "regent" so they have a huge combat bonus vs. barbs).

Making the basic units sword/knight is vicious. I'd say archer and horse - or even a modded horse (2/2/2). That, w/o combat bonuses, should be challenging.

I'm a whimp with barbs. I play on "roaming" for that very reason.

-Arrian

	27-07-2002 00:13									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Encampments only pop up in the fog of war

The FoW is the grey area, right? Assuming so then this is not correct. I'm playing a game while cruising Apolyton (while I've been writing these posts), and I just now had an encampment appear directly next to some workers who were building a RR out in the boon-docks (sp?).

I've also, in other games, had encampments appear next to my troops. Never, however, closer to my borders than probably 8 to 10 squares.

	27-07-2002 00:18									#16
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Redbird,

Ok, I know what you mean. I've had that happen too. I don't think workers or settlers count (yes, they push back the FoW, but they aren't military units). In my experience, the only way to get rid of those blasted camps is to build cities and expand your borders. However, I distinctly recall several situations where I could not spare a settler and I used a unit to sit on a mountain in an unsettled area to prevent the barbs from popping up again. It worked.

-Arrian

	27-07-2002 00:18									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Within difficulty settings, change "combat bonus vs barbarians" = 0

Just went into the editor, and I see that on Monarch level the value is 100. [Names corrected:](Chieftain=800, Warlord=400, Regent=200, Monarch=100, Emperor=50, Diety=0). Does this mean that you have one-to-one odds at diety, but at monarch you get two-to-one odds against barbarians? If not then how does these numbers work?



Edit: When I first posted this I mixed up the names. I'm correcting them with this edit.

	27-07-2002 00:19									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian ... The best option is to remove the barb combat bonus. Or play at the difficulty level where there is none (but of course the AI always plays on "regent" so they have a huge combat bonus vs. barbs). ...

I always play at Regent also, so the AI has as much advantage over them as I have. This way (hopefully), the AI can be tormented by the barbs also!

JB,
President of the Equal Combat Rights to Barbarians Society

	27-07-2002 00:22									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian However, I distinctly recall several situations where I could not spare a settler and I used a unit to sit on a mountain in an unsettled area to prevent the barbs from popping up again. It worked.

You must have been lucky then because I've done the exact same thing, and I've had encampments pop up. I think I recall an encampment popping up once next to a Modern Armor, but I'm not positive about that. I am positive, however, about encampments popping up under the watchful eye of MechInf sitting on mountains.

	27-07-2002 00:25									#20
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quote: Originally posted by RedBird Just went into the editor, and I see that on Monarch level the value is 100. (Chieftain=800, Regent=400, Prince[I think it was called prince, but I forget now]=200, Monarch=100, Warlord=50, Diety=0). Does this mean that you have one-to-one odds at diety, but at monarch you get two-to-one odds against barbarians? If not then how does these numbers work?

YES, at Monarch your strength is doubled! Attack AND Defense, is my belief. Isn't that horrendous? SO unfair to the poor barbs.

That's why it's "President of the Equal Combat Rights to Barbarians Society"

	27-07-2002 00:28									#21
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My current game is on a real world map. The map starts with several barbarian encampments there. It's about 1200ad, and I just plopped the first towns down in australia. I've had my military there for over a century, tho - four elite infantry on rough terrain. One is dead (!), the others have all lost hit points. There were more barbarian horsemen than I could count. The first wave of attacks brought dozens of horsemen. After that, they just kept streaming in, with no end in sight. I managed to wipe out two encampments, but half of the continent is still black...

My point is just that the camps will produce huge numbers of bad guys, given enough time. Even tho they are just wimps, the sheer number of them makes it a force to take seriously!

Another good mod is to make a modded privateer 3/1/5 the default barbarian ship. They can sink all your wooden ships, so you must take care around them.

	27-07-2002 00:28									#22
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How very egalitarian of you Jaybe.

"Sure they're smelly and want to destroy us but darnit, we have to be fair"

	27-07-2002 00:36									#23
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quote: Originally posted by N. Machiavelli How very egalitarian of you Jaybe. "Sure they're smelly and want to destroy us but darnit, we have to be fair"

Thank You! I have to admit that I get the most fun out of the barbarian threads.
There are few areas in life that I try to ram my opinions down another's throat, but this is definitely one of them.

JB,
President of the Equal Combat Rights to Barbarians Society

	27-07-2002 01:24									#24
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quote: Originally posted by RedBird You mean that in one turn the barbarian encampment will put out 30 horsemen, or just that over time you'll end up with 30 horsemen?

Both.

If you get a notice of an uprising from your military advisor, you might get a stack of 25-30 horsemen appear out of nowhere. Sometimes they're produced by an encampment, sometimes they're produced by a Galley on the coast.

However, the encampments also produce Horsemen at various intervals, I'm not sure of the time scale, if there even is any. It could be just a random thing. At any rate, the Horsemen produced tend to join together over time, so that if you don't take out an encampment that's close to your empire, you might find yourself battling a stack of 20 or more eventually.

	27-07-2002 01:40									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe YES, at Monarch your strength is doubled! Attack AND Defense, is my belief. Isn't that horrendous? SO unfair to the poor barbs. That's why it's "President of the Equal Combat Rights to Barbarians Society"

Is that with 1.29 ? It seems like I've lost more combats than normal against barbs with my first 1.29 game (monarch).

	27-07-2002 03:13									#26
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in 1.29, i noticed that uprisings have been reduced to 6 barbs. thats not an uprising, thats just an annoyance. bring back the 26 barbs..........

	27-07-2002 03:25									#27
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Is that with 1.29 ? It seems like I've lost more combats than normal against barbs with my first 1.29 game (monarch).

I THINK Redbird is in error in one or two of the percentage advantages, but if you check your Editor: Difficulty Levels tab: Attack Bonus Against Barbarians, you'll find what they are. Check the .bic file you are playing with (original or scenario).

JB,
President of the Equal Combat Rights to Barbarians Society

	27-07-2002 03:28									#28
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quote: Originally posted by ALPHA WOLF 64 in 1.29, i noticed that uprisings have been reduced to 6 barbs. thats not an uprising, thats just an annoyance. bring back the 26 barbs..........

I cannot yet speak with authority, but I would wager that your 6 barbs had been intercepted by some AI troops, reducing their number.

JB,
President of the Equal Combat Rights to Barbarians Society

[Edit: deleted duplicate 'yet', typos]

	27-07-2002 03:30									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe I cannot yet speak with authority yet, but I would wager that your 6 barbs had been intercepted by som AI troops, reducing their number. JB, President of the Equal Combat Rights to Barbarians Society

Yes, a maximum of 6 seems like a pretty drastic reduction, especially considering that they added a no barb option in the game setup.

	27-07-2002 03:34									#30
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If they have been reduced to 6 in number, I would bet that they increased their effect (well, at least I HOPE so)!