27-07-2002 10:07									#1
	What would you do with first GL in this case? Remove this text

Playing as the chinese on monarch.

Its 100 BC, you just discovered literature. You are on a medium sized continent with Japan and India (they don;t have literature). You just got a great leader. You made peace with India and are at war with Japan. You have the hanging gardens and colossus. Japan built oracle much earlier. On another continent the greeks just built the great lighthouse and english built great wall.

Would you rush build the great library with this leader? Even tho you are on a smaller continent away from most of the other civs and great lighthouse has been built on the other contient already? So contact is not assured. If you don't build it more than likely it will be lost to someone on other continent.

Or would you build an army and then build the heroic epic?

Or something else?

	27-07-2002 10:28									#2
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chinese = militaristic...

heroic epic =

together, you'll have an INSANE number of great leaders.

i vote for an army.

	27-07-2002 11:01									#3
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Same as Uber - probably an army and then a quick victory for HE and later MA.

OTOH, if Japan is firmly under your thumb (i.e., you can lacksadaisically let the war drag on without feeling the need to press the offense, without worrying about Japanese counter-attacks, and having already gotten a pretty good map / view of your home continent) an optimally placed and rushed Forbidden Palace could do wonders for the game. Since you're on the smaler continent, if I were you I would consider rushing my FP in the center of the smaller continent, with a long range plan of eventually using a future leader to rush a palace on the new continent. An early FP can do wonders for your game, and a docile but "at war" Japan may yet yield a leader for an army before you feel the need to make peace.

Catt

	27-07-2002 11:40									#4
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Army. If you intend to stay at war and are good at managing the creation of leaders (it can be an art).

GL might gain you a lot though. The one who builds the Lighthouse will find your continent in most cases. The maps are just worth so much.

	27-07-2002 16:53									#5
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My preference would be the Great Library but thats because I usually spend most of the game playing tech catch-up on monarch and emperor. You seem to be already equal or ahead in the tech race so it may not be critical to assure yourself of it. You should have been building a palace in a high production city in anticipation of your discovery of literature though which should allow you to build it first anyway. So build the army.

	27-07-2002 18:02									#6
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I would also go for the Great Library, and then try as hard as I can to get contact with another civ, sending galleys, buying communications, doing whatever.

	27-07-2002 21:17									#7
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What size map? Are there other, as yet undiscovered AI civs?

How many cities do you have? How many in total (incl. Japan & India) on your founding continent?

	28-07-2002 10:32									#8
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No one else thinks an optimally placed FP in 100 BC is the way to go? He already has the Hanging Gardens (Monarchy) - it can't be too much more before the GL is a culture monster but otherwise useless (and that's assuming the G. Lighthouse builder makes its way to our home continent soon).

My experience has been that a great FP built in the BCs is a game breaker.

Catt

	28-07-2002 14:43									#9
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The important question that hasn't been considered is what will you do with your *second* great leader, and how soon do you want that leader?

I vote for Army. Then win an easy battle with the army, and build the Heroic Epic.

The Great Library will likely net you no techs before it is obsolete, because you have the tech lead on your island and you haven't met anyone else. But the army is guaranteed to be useful because you are at war.

	28-07-2002 16:23									#10
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You should build an army and turn your continent red with Japanese blood.

	28-07-2002 19:37									#11
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Hmmm... I think you should rush the G.L. This will enable you to set yoyr science research to 0%. you should be able to save up lost of money. then, buil lots of units, and stratigicly take out your neighbors.

	29-07-2002 02:05									#12
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Army. The existence of an army, especially in ancient times, opens the way to faster victories, several small wonders, and an increased chance for more leaders.

Great Library expires so quickly that it is literally a waste for your precious Great Leader. I never rush any of those ancient wonders since they all expire sooner or later(except Pyramid which you should rather capture). But the real important wonders are from the Medieval Age: Sun Tzu's Art of War, Leonardo's Workshop, and the Sistine Chapel. These are wonders worth rushing for.

	29-07-2002 03:03									#13
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Hmm, I always thought sun tzu's a waste for militaristic due to our cheap barracks, unless it saves maintenance costs. I can't remember if it does, is this why you value it? Just rushing cheaps barracks in all cities is easy enough.

Leo's Workshop is a must for china, those horsemen upgrades of 80 gp to knights are steep indeed. And the chapel is priceless no doubt.

Last edited by Artifex on 29-07-2002 at 03:22

	29-07-2002 03:05									#14
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As a militaristic civ, you don't have to build Sun Tzu's Art of War, but it's still good to deny other Civs from having it.

	29-07-2002 03:11									#15
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I always try to make sure I get Art Of War

	29-07-2002 03:35									#16
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Ill make it a priority from now on. Good point about denial..it will make my enemies slaughter that much easier.

	29-07-2002 03:39									#17
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In my current game I have had 3 ancient GLs it is going awesome and It's only 1 ad.

First one built a 3 horsemen army, 2nd one rushed Heroic Epic. 3rd one I think is gonna rush Sun Tzu's when I get feudalism.

I have almost an entire horseman elite army..its hard to even find any vets they are all elite. Gotta love it.

When I get riders= scary.

Last edited by Artifex on 29-07-2002 at 03:46

	29-07-2002 14:41									#18
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX chinese = militaristic... heroic epic = together, you'll have an INSANE number of great leaders. i vote for an army.

I've tried that road and I must sadly admit that I did not get many GL. It may be something I am doing but I never really get a lot of GL.

In this case I'd go for the Great Library because of it's cultural value and the fact that by building it you deny it to others .

	29-07-2002 22:50									#19
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Artifex,

Do you have a spot for a good Forbidden Palace? If so, this is a no-brainer. Rush the FP. If not, but you will have the perfect city for the FP soon, hold the leader (use only vet troops until you use it) for that. If, however, it will be some time before you have the optimal FP spot and you feel confident you will do a bunch more fighting, make an army and get that Heroic Epic going.

The army/HE is a gamble. It's a calculated risk. You are trading 1 leader and the shields req'd for the HE *now* in exchange for a higher leader generation rate for the balance of the game. It's sometimes a tough call. But 9 times out of 10, I agree with Catt:

An optimal Forbidden Palace in the BC years. When you absolutely, positively have to have Ultimate Power, accept no substitutes (I apologize for the Pulp Fiction reference, I couldn't help it).

-Arrian

	29-07-2002 23:17									#20
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I think it depends on what type of victory you're shooting for. If you're going for space race, I wouldn't bother with Great Library on Monarch. It's too easy to research faster than the AI on that difficulty level (at least it was pre-patch, usually you could get a lead by the middle of the medieval era if not before). You could really shoot yourself in the foot going for Great Library in that situation. OTOH a conquest or cultural victory would really support use of the library as you can set taxes to 100% and use the cash to buy units etc assuming you're in a non-despotism government.

Otherwise, unless you're preparing a Palace jump, then definitely build the FP. Best wonder (great or small) in the game.

	29-07-2002 23:44									#21
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Great Library and do everything possible to make as many contacts as possible. Buy 'em, trade for 'em, and send out galleys (you might get lucky)

	30-07-2002 00:11									#22
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Winning the Space Race is a long, drawn-out process now that the parts of been delayed to later techs, 2 of them to Robotics.

Oops! That's in MY Civ universe!

	30-07-2002 00:25									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Artifex In my current game I have had 3 ancient GLs it is going awesome and It's only 1 ad. First one built a 3 horsemen army, 2nd one rushed Heroic Epic. 3rd one I think is gonna rush Sun Tzu's when I get feudalism. I have almost an entire horseman elite army..its hard to even find any vets they are all elite. Gotta love it. When I get riders= scary.

May we assume that you hereby officially retract the earlier thread "Hmm, maybe militaristic stinks after all"?

	30-07-2002 01:07									#24
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I would still go for the army with regard to the original question. but would agree that the FP is also a must have.Great Library is a good one to have and its always better for you to have the wonders than anyone else.I would say that if you want a cultural victory then get GL but conquest is much more fun and will be far easier to acheive with Heroic Epic & Military Academy later.You should certainly set about gaining overall control of your continent as early as possible to stand any chance of being a super power later when the other AI are known to you.

	30-07-2002 01:27									#25
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I definately have an admiration for the militaristic trait now. My last two games I have generated 3 leaders each. I quit the first game in the midst of Middle Ages and the second one is about 20% into the Industrial Age. I have only gotten one leader in all of my other games.

	30-07-2002 01:44									#26
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Hey Artifex let us know how things turned out when youve finished the game.