27-07-2002 22:44									#1
	The War, the Next War, and an island Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well, now that our first grand campaign has gotten off to a great start, it think several new issue come ito play. They will all be disuccussed over and over, but I want to start, so lets go:

The War: Next stop is NY, that clear. But what comes after? Boston, Philadelphia? And how far do we atatck the Americans?
Many wanted to fully crush Abe, now some say we shold leave them as a crippled place holder. Can we afford to destroy Abe utterly with the forces we have? Will Abe's neighbors leave him to us in the future, or will they finish him off, taking good land also?

The, there is the next war: Will we go directly to war with Joan? can an archer rush work a second time? We are trying to get our hands on iron, and we have horses. Should our next force be of swordmen and horsemen? Can we wait long enought to have this type of army? will archer fail next time?
And should we ally ourselves with others, to make war with France easier? And should France be the next target at all? What about Xerxes, or Bismarck, Alex or any of the other?

Then there are the post war, and peacetime questions. Can we afford to just buy techs for too long? How long shall we let ourselves fall behind culturally to build our armies? What will be the shape of our future dilomatic state after our great enlargement? Will it make us friends, or enemies? Can we further expand at home, or is a trip to the promised land accross the sea the only way of peacefull expansion?

And perhaps, on a more adventerous tone? Shall we try to find the four missing civs and their great continent?

DISCUSS

	27-07-2002 22:52									#2
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I say we should sue for Philly and Chicago once we capture Boston. This gives us our spot in Fragrant Valley, and leaves the Americans with Atlanta for future exploits. I also believe that an Archer Rush wouldn't really prove effective against anyone for much longer. We should upgrade our army to swordsmen and horsemen. I've noticed that we have a settler moving towards the 'jungle iron' location. The Persians are also doing the same thing, although they're much closer. It is imperative that we get this iron if we expect to be able to compete in any future war. Waiting to take it from someone else would be too risky what with the lackluster resources we have at the time.

	27-07-2002 22:55									#3
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IMO:
Take NY. Peace, and get Phili and atlanta.
Switch all to either temple or settler (if no temple yet).
Be carefull with our neighbors. They now know we are warlike, and will treat us as such. I say we give the gift of territorymap, so they like us and do not demand anything of us.
Consolidate our new lands.
First surround the city of munich. Plan on taking it over culturally.
then build toward Chicago. Once we have our infrastructure in place, march toward the ivory cost.
A second war could devistate us if it happens to soon. make ourselves strong, then all shall bow before our obvious superiority.
GK

	27-07-2002 23:02									#4
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It might well serve us better to leave some American cities, namely the ones that give us nothing and Chicago. Unless we can get them through peace terms, we may well just destroy them, creating a hole for others, dangerously so in the case of Chi-town.

Chi-town is in a great resource position, and the foot of those mountains has Iron. We will not get the iron we are sending that settler to,so this place is a must.

	28-07-2002 00:35									#5
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I dont think a war with Persia should be taken lightly, it looks like they will reach the iron before us and therefore will create immortals, which could throw back our forces and wreak terrible havoc

	28-07-2002 00:46									#6
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we go to NY, and then we try to sue for peace.

i'd like the city in Frangrany Valley (i forget the name offhand) in the peace deal, but Sir Ralph believes they probably wont give it to us since i has luxuries.

if they refuse to give us that city, we could always try for the one in the jungle (philly), as a "placeholder" city. sure its in a sucky spot, but we can leave it there for a while and move it later. it could pop out some industrious workers until then i suppose.

i'd also like Atlanta in the peace deal, but we'll have to see how stubborn abe is after we rape this women and assimilaite his race.

	28-07-2002 00:49									#7
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as for the next war, i say france, ASAP.

a swarm of swordsmen or horsemen would be great, and effective. I would honestly be in favor of ramming right through joan (innuendo) until we could settle the southern subcontinent.

uber isle? in due time, but i hope to see a city on it before the end of my term (august 16th? gulp).

	28-07-2002 01:05									#8
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I agree, france, totally wipe out France, then we can look at our position reguarding otherstates, but we should have options to use our own settlers to expand!

	28-07-2002 14:38									#9
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And about this war (after I have had a chance to look at the save ), New York should be our next target and we should attack with everything we've got and wait for reinforcements which we can then use to force the Americans to surrender by taking Chicago (that is the one in Fragrant valley, right?), just my opinion anyway !!

	28-07-2002 15:09									#10
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New York or another city (there are a few other candidates IIRC) should be easy to take, then we can probably extort, I mean persuade, the Americans to give up another one or two of their less productive jungle cities in the peace terms.

Is this what we need however? The extra cities and population will of course be better than not having them, but how much of a detrtiment will it be having such useless cities? Should instead we ignore these cities and just take what we need out of America (Boston and NY and one day Chicago)? Or will taking the crap city sites help for some good reason?

I would love to hear some views by experienced strategians on the potential uses/lack of uses for these cities we may gain through peace.

	28-07-2002 16:19									#11
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Although I am not an experienced stratege in these times, I think of a few points which can be considered (regarding exclusively Philadelphia):
- it is a place where we would not like to see a strong civ
- it is in our border where in any case we have to place some units, at least as lookout
- who knows what will be discovered later in this place strange but nevertheless choosen by Abe.

IMVHO.

	28-07-2002 18:55									#12
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As Sir Ralph has suggested before, we create a FP -Palace axis where corruption is at a minimum, however, this is looking quite far into the future.

	28-07-2002 19:59									#13
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I say carry the war onwards to other nations, conquer the globe!! Mybe then we'll be as good as the WONDERFULL CF guys, arn't they great

	28-07-2002 20:21									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Almightyjosh I say carry the war onwards to other nations, conquer the globe!! Mybe then we'll be as good as the WONDERFULL CF guys, arn't they great

At LEAST change your sig and your location before you do that.

	28-07-2002 22:14									#15
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The French have to be next we can't give them too much time to get going as they are always a string power. They already have alot of cities and good land and resources.

We also have to get something onto uber isle quickly. Personally I'd like to see a galley being built next turn chat.

	28-07-2002 22:42									#16
	A chance for peace, and checking Greece Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Everyone want to go to war with France, and I think this has more to do with anti-French feelings than strategic reality.

Look at the power graph: the french are around the middle, while Greece rules supreme: should we not be chacking greece and not france? Joan is an ally, why not keep making use of that? also, why is no one mentioning the map?

We are rushing to get rion in the mountains and jungle: fine, to deprive Xerxes of iron is a good thing, but has anyone loooked at the land between Chicago and Boston? Its great! We could make a city in Flood plains, right next to an iron source. In 10 turns we could have a road connection from Apolyton to Washington (2 tiles of jungle stand in the way between Banana and NY), and then we could try to shuttle settlers between Apolyton and wahington, ruch for that area and get it before alex does, and if he does, we will die eventually...

If we spend as much time on careful planning, we can have 2 or 3 great more cities, just from a continuation of the anti-American war, we can cultivate a strong ally on our borders, while checking the growth of what is the strongest power now, intead of spending more time at war with a power greater than us. Gorwth thorugh peace is possible, once abe is out of the way. Lets seize the moment!

	28-07-2002 22:42									#17
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Also since those heathen persians appear to be getting the iron perhaps the settler should go to NY which looks like being autorazed.

	28-07-2002 23:27									#18
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We're not attacking Greece because that would be strategic suicide. It would drain all of our resouces, and we'd probably end up losing anyway.

	28-07-2002 23:49									#19
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I agree with GePap. France usually does not go to betray allies, and Jeanne could save us a lot of work fighting the civs in Abanabana... I really don’t appreciate the Germans so close, not to mention Montezuma. I suspect Mr. Bismarck likes banana pies…With the exception of France, everybody around want eat us, soon or later. Well, we must eat them first!

Someday, we will conquer the French, but they don’t scares me so much by now. At least, not until Jeanne cuts his hair off… It is horrifying!
But I only play in Warlord. In Emperor level, Joan D’Arc could be so nasty as others, you guys know better.

	28-07-2002 23:53									#20
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I actually like having the Germans above us. With the Aztecs just beyond them, it's more likely that they will attack each other than for Germany to attack us.

	29-07-2002 00:02									#21
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I started this post for a single reason: we are at war, but what our objectives are, how we wfit into the continent we now see, whether we can expand with less war: none of these things are ebign discussed!

Have we hald polls already? Have we already voted to go to war with France, or leave America crippled but not destroyed? Please, someone give me the links If we did already vote on these things. If we haven't, we need far more in depth discussion than what we have had, much more.

	29-07-2002 01:13									#22
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GePap

The french can wait. Let's look at our greatest threats and try to negate those before doing anything in haste. Why waste our time doing what is unnessary when we have other worries?

The road to the iron is critical. If we can get both irons, that'd be even better. If not, we should plan on having troops stationed near the Persian iron in the future, to be ready to cut the supply line.

As much as I'd like to check the Greeks, I can't see how to do that militarily. The hoplites are almost invulnerable without swords or knights. the only thing would be if they were stupid enough to send out unguarded settlers or offensive units without stacking with hops. Perhaps we can try to colonize as quick as we can towards them, that seems the only option for keeping them in check. Or an alliance with France against them. That would distract them from colonizing, but I doubt we'd take anything, and they might actually take some French (or Apoly) cities.

btw, a galley to swing some settlers around France might be worthwhile... but I think we should definitely be resettling America and the Ivory Coast first.

I am all in favour of using America as a placeholder, if possible. The iron spot near Fragrant Valley would be great, if we can get (Chicago?) in a deal, that'd be great.


---
(slight aside/threadjack: GePap, while I still say we are the legislature, I do see your point. Since our polls are necessarily [edit] NOT [/edit] binding (esp. on in game stuff), we're sort of a toothless (or emasculated) legislature. I definitely see the need for some second set of laws/policies to guide in-game decisions... such as that example of minimum treasury balance or pop-rush regulations or domestic defense plan...).

Last edited by Captain on 29-07-2002 at 08:09

	29-07-2002 01:58									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Now that we have cmpleted the current war we can decide the next move. IMHO
1) specific items
use our army of workers(3 cap, one bought this last chat) to connect iron, dyes and new cities
2) Build temp in cities so we have a bigger control area and more advance warning of attack.
3) Build rapid reaction force of horsemen to react quickly
After this we can see where we stand
We probablty will want another war soon after that, the target was assumed to be france, but I would like to have some debate on that.
Aggie

	29-07-2002 02:45									#24
	Junior Strategic Observations: Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Now that the first war with America is over, where do we stand? I have put together a list of things that we probably need to do, and also some observations about the othr civs and how they are:

We need to connect NY (Gaia is the new name) to BHQ, which should take at most 8 turns with 3 slave workers. We need a road to Ubergorsk to connect our iron.
We need defenses in Philadelphia and Atlanta. We can poprush a spearman in Atlanta.
We are building 1 temple (Ubergorsk), 1 archer, and 7 spearmen (total of 9 cities) currently, with a couple of the spearmen done soon. We should change some of those to either temples or other units.

Now on the other civs:

SOUTHERN TRIANGLE:

The southern triangle is made up of Romans, Iriquois and Russians. All these civs have space to the north to expand into, before meeting France. Iriqouis have yet to gain horses, thus still lack their UU. The romans have access to Iron, and thus their legios are available. They also have horses. Russia has horse, I believe. Of these three, Rome reigns supreme, Russia next and Iriqouis last. In such a situatio, the Romans will most likely get the main share of the land left open.

THE CENTER:

We are here, along with Greeks, French, Americans. The greeks have the largest civ, and are #1 in the histograph. they have horses but no iron yet, they have to wait for cultural expansion. They can expand both north of Americans, and towards an empty Ivory Coast.
France has horses, but has yet to connect the iron it posseses. France has room for expansion south of the mountains. The Americans are crippled and can do little for now.

THE NORTH AND WEST:

This area holds the Aztecs, English, Persians, and Germans. The Aztecs have horses but no iron. They have room to expand south, and east towards the english.
The Germans have no strategic resources, though they could have iron at Hamburg with cultural expansion. They can expand by destroying America, or heading west, to the lands north of us.
The English are the only other civ, besides the Romans, with Iron already. hey can expand west, to meet the Aztecs. The Persians don't have horses (I beleive), and don't have iron, though if Antoch expands, they will have access to iron. The Persians have little room to expand, already clashing with the English to the north, and have the jungle and Germans to the west.


PROSPECTS OF WAR: We have 4 immidiate neighbors, France, America, Greece, Germany. Persia is close also.

AMERICA: With the spearmen comming along, a second war with the Americans could be started soon. The Americans could create a city between Boston and Chicago and gain access to the iron there, as well as horses south of that. we could strike beofre that and destroy them, though not as quickly as this last war, and taking Chicago, on a hill, might be costly with Archers.

GREECE: Their Hoplites would mean a bloody war, and they have a large rear area and good roads, allowing them to move to the battlefiled faster than us. They migh also already employ horsemen, unlike the Americans. A war with the greeks could not cripple them early, and thus we might at best get only what cities we actually take in the war.

FRANCE: France, like Greece, has good roads and a large rear area. They might also employ horsemen unlike the Americans. They are also our only neighbor that may very soon have access to iron and swordmen. Like with greece, the fact that France has a good rear area and much room to expand, and access to resources, might make them far less likely than Abe to give anything up besides what they loose in battle.

GERMANY: The Germans lack major resources and are also more compact than Greece or France. At the same time, our armies must cross the jungle to get there, while they would move their amries internally. Germany is porbably a much weaker foe than either Greece or France, but there is less to gain also.

PERSIA: while Persia has a few cities close to Ubergorsk, their main cities lie after much jungle. It would take very long to move armies into position. Once the Persia's got Iron, the ocunterattack might be too much.

ALLIENCES: We could use the Romans and Greeks vs. french, the Americans and French vs. Greeks, the Americans and Persians vs. Germans, the English and Germans vs. Persians.

	29-07-2002 02:52									#25
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Good work, Gepap.

A few notes: The road to BHQ has highest priority and will be done by the slaves with other workers rushing by as the current jungle cleaning gets done.

About connecting the iron: I'm in favor to found an intermediate city, to ensure we control all parts of the road. Iron is a key resource, and worth another crappy city location. I will open a discussion thread about this, probably tomorrow.

	29-07-2002 03:13									#26
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A comprehensive report, great work GePap,

	29-07-2002 05:45									#27
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Excellent, GePap. Thanks

	29-07-2002 05:58									#28
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Personally, i think we should get some settlers out to saturate the jungle inbetween our cities. if we lose out on the perfect 21 size cities of the future or not, i dunno, but our location is still a squeeze of sorts, so we should develop it as much as possible.

Oh.. and for post-war plans, im totally in favor of a buildup in everthing concerning production, culture and defense. But we dont need an offensive war anymore. I dont see wars neccesary untill the Middle Ages.

	29-07-2002 16:35									#29
	Re: A chance for peace, and checking Greece Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by GePap Everyone want to go to war with France, and I think this has more to do with anti-French feelings than strategic reality.

What is he talking about ?

	30-07-2002 01:05									#30
	Re: Re: A chance for peace, and checking Greece Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT What is he talking about ?

What I mean is that many players may have had bad experiences with Joan in previous games, and thus, they want to go to war with France because they think, 'well, it might happen again'. So, I believe the desire of many to attack France has nothing to do with the notion that we need to fight that war now, but because people don't like the Frenh in the game.