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BigRich
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of the Trentan
May 2001
time: 05:21
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Hi,
I don't know what the current state of play is on Tech trees and stuffbut I read a post from Ramo on the Societal Model thread - 'I have been implementing some of these' (  ) and figured I'd better get this post up before things were too set in place!
OK, from what I remember, there are three tech trees, military, espionage and construction (for want of a better word). Possibly also a magic tree as well, as and when a magic system is implemented. Research points are generated per turn from libraries, scribes guilds or whatever, and can be allocated into one or more of the trees.
Am I right so far??
What I was thinking, is that research points should *not* be generated purely at 'research' buildings but also at more 'relevant' buildings. Espionage points could be generated at Thieves guilds, military points at smithies (better weapon manufacturing) and military academies, and construction points generated at forester guilds, mason guilds or what have you.
Instead, a library would be needed either to start the research process, or to advance beyond a certain point in any of the tech trees. Once in place the library would then provide say a 50% bonus to research points generated per turn by the *other* buildings and not really provide much research in its own right.
My reasoning for this was that a lot of Candle'Bre type tech was most likely to be discovered by craftsmen at their day to day work than by ivory tower type scholars in libraries (the obvious exception to this would be magical techs). The libraries would of course be essential for storing accumulated tradecraft and sorting and organising disparate bits of knowledge (which tends to speed up research by 'cross fertilising' knowledge between different disciplines) - hence the research bonus and need for a library to advance beyond a certain point. No amount of scholarly treatises on weapons smithing will replace the skills and knowledge of a trained smith, but the treatises may be useful for suggesting new alloys.
anyway just my two brass coins.
thoughts?
Rich
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BigRich
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of the Trentan
May 2001
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Hey Rich! Ohhh, and an excellent idea! I'm liking the approach of mixing up the locations that research points come from!
I'm thinking something of a hybrid approach then. Instead of treating research points as "generic" we assign each line of research a class (infrastructural research, espi research, etc), and then give specific buildings the ability to generate one or more research points (ie - thieves guilds might only generate espi research points, while a library might be more general purpose, and have the ability to crank out any).
Whatcha think?
-=Vel=- |
Hiya Vel!
Cheers for the thumbs up  Your hybrid approach is about what I had in mind - except that libraries only really work once the other specific buildings are up and running. However based on the other (excellent) replies on this thread how about this model?
1. Each research tree has associated buildings that generate research points for that tree. Without a library you can only advance as far as Tech 2 in any given tree.
2. Building a library gives a tech point bonus (percentage based or fixed point per turn - whatever works best) and allows you to advance as far as tech level 5 in any given tree. Represents the 'library as knowledge store' rather than 'library as tech tool' idea. Recorded knowledge means that craftsmen are less dependent on long apprenticeships just to keep the older skills alive, and gives them more time for innovation. On the other hand this stored knowledge does tend to stagnate after a while and prevent further advancement.
3. Building a University adds another tech point bonus and allows advances to Tech 10 in any given tree. Destroying all Universities of a faction busts that faction back to Tech level 5 - after a fixed number of turns have passed. This represents the time for knowledge to be lost, for stockpiles of advanced weapons to be used up etc. Note that rebuilding Universities within this time period has no effect on research point growth or on available Tech Levels. (takes time for knowledge to reaccumulate)
4. Tech points are only allocated to a tree if some of the associated buildings are available. Thus a faction with no thieves guilds (assuming these are the only Espi point generators) will *never* advance up the Espionage tree regardless of numbers of libraries or Universities it may own. Introduces the possibility of selectively crippling an opponents research in selected areas by some judicious sabotage or conquest 
For what its worth it was the Civ 3 tech tree that made me think about this. It always struck me as a little silly that you could research 'Free Artistry' or 'Music theory' (or Democracy or the Republic for that matter). The tech tree approach may the be the easiest implementation but I thought it would be much better to tie these advances in with the Culture rating of a civilisation. Above a certain culture level, your society is assumed to have sufficient interest in such things to want to build mighty Cathedrals and things, ie it has effectively 'discovered' music theory.
No way is Civ 3 going to change now, but I figured I may as well chuck my thinking into the great Candle'Bre melting pot and see what happened  .
Rich.
P.S. Vel - how are things progressing by the way? Not asking for definite dates or anything (tho that would be very nice ) but just some indication of how things are moving along. Enquiring minds and eager fans would like to know!
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Brinoch
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Silver Spring, MD
Jan 2002
time: 00:21
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Vel, just as a thought, if you make regular buildings produce a certain amount of research, wouldn't it make sense to have all research the trees moving forward concurrently?
Granted this would be complex, but given that you want research to be longer and more difficult, it makes some small amount of sense.
1. Smithies, military academies and what have you don't really work on a "directed" level. They develop innovation by merely doing what they do. A military strategist will always try and find new ways to win a battle at the same as an armorer tries to keep people alive. Thieves, meanwhile, are always be honing their skills (the better to slink off with your coin). So, each turn your buildings would produce a small amount of research (innovation) along its designated path.
2. As King (or Queen), you could offer financial "grants" along specific lines of innovation. For example, the King offers funds to weaponsmiths who develop harder metals, better swords, etc. This would add to your research level -- your gold spurs innovation (along the lines *you* desire).
3. You could spread your "grants" among all the trees, two trees, or focus it on one tree -- whatever your choice might be. This allows a more 'realistic' feel to research, rather than an arbitrary, "Hey, look George, I've discovered Music Theory! Fancy that." And, I think it would give the feel of really choosing your research priorities.
So, to summarize, your buildings would add a certain amount of research per turn. (2 per turn for the sake of this example.) The King's "grants," which spur and reward innovation amount to 20 units per turn. If I direct all of that into military aims, my research would be 22 military, 2 espionage, and 2 religious units per turn. (Or, I could direct it half into military and half into religion -- 12, 2, 12.)
You could also add an element of happiness/unhappiness (if it fits in the schema) for "rewarding" one group over another.
In addition, there can be a percent chance of innovation event occuring for each type of building you have, nationwide. Giving research, whether directed or not, a more random fit and start kind of feel.
4. I really liked the ideas expressed by BigRich about libraries and universities being required to pass a certain tech threshold. That makes good, logical sense. Also, there should be some sort of bonus or multiplier associated with libraries/universities/academies.
5. Or, if libraries *hinder* intellectual growth, that can be accounted for too. This is a neat idea, too.
I like the feel of concurrent research. Just my $0.02.
Doug
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Brinoch
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Silver Spring, MD
Jan 2002
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Brinoch
In addition, there can be a percent chance of innovation event occuring for each type of building you have, nationwide. Giving research, whether directed or not, a more random fit and start kind of feel.
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I realize I didn't really flesh this out -- what I mean here by an 'innovation event' is a little game pop up saying Joe Armorer discovered something -- like how to temper steel to made it extremely hard and durable. This 'event' spurs your research and gives you a small bonus amount of research points along this tree. I would keep the research amounts relatively small, so no one gets a huge tech lead because they were realy lucky.
This gives you a chance, through a usually mundane and unseen part of the game, to flesh out the Candle'Bre world and illustrate to players their level of technology.
Doug
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Brinoch
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Silver Spring, MD
Jan 2002
time: 00:21
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Thanks Rich. I appreciate it. I'm also happy to report that your thoughts on buildings generating research and the library/university restrictions were the genesis of this idea.
I also really like the idea of knowledge being lost and losing your research. It adds an element of risk to war, and really makes you want to protect your research investment with adequate troops. After all, who wants to be in a so-called 'Dark Age'.
Speaking of which, it might be fun to place a nasty event called the 'Dark Age' in game. It would be something along the lines of a huge Nillrogg bloom in the mountains if all the universities are destroyed (and not replaced in a certain number of turns) *or* if no faction creates a university by a designated time (but well after one could potentially build them).
Brin
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Bleyn
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quote:
Originally posted by ravagon
Q: Would it be possible to "crash" a factions tech base by destroying all of their libraries? ie: They actually lose advanced knowledge and have to research it all over again ...
In ancient times, without the specialization that came with the industrial revolution this is probably more realistic as there would be fewer dedicated scientists out there able resurrect the destroyed information.
I'm not so sure about that ...  |
I just started looking over this forum (the discussions in the Civ3 forums are getting a bit tedious for my tastes at the moment) but I couldn't resist responding to this.
My inclination would be to say Splunge (Yes, No and Maybe). Really it would depend on nature of each and every tech someone had researched up to that point. Why? Because while some of the research involved may have occured in a library, that doesn't mean thats the only place the knowledge is kept. For many technologies the primary repository is really the hands and heads of the skilled artisan.
Longbows for example(to pick a tech from the working doc). While there may be some books or scrolls on longbows in the libraries, that is not where an apprentice bowyer would go to learn. He would work in the shop of a master, learning how to select good wood for a bow, how to shape it, how to make a good string for the bow, and probably a bunch of other things I don't know about. Losing the library would not bother them much. In fact, odds would be pretty good that they would be illiterate, or at best know enough of their letters and numbers to read the latest proclaimation from their local lord. And even if they are literate, thats still not going to really have much to do with the practice of their craft.
And to be honest, looking over the list, I don't really see many techs listed that could be lost that way. Most of them look like the sort that would be learned through experience, not book learning.
As for the whole "Dark Ages" thing, yes when Rome was sacked and Europe collapsed back into a lot of little states, some knowledge was lost. But it was mostly book knowledge. Law, natural history, philosophy and the like. The arts and crafts of daily living remained fairly intact. What was really lost was communication. For a good long time it was not really safe to travel. The roads between towns no longer had the protective influence of the Roman government and the legions. Robbers, thieves and outlaws really did lurk in the forests between the villages. Most people would live their entire lives in one village and would never dream of travelling more than half a days walk from home, if that far. When that happened what was lost was the synergisim that can come from communication, not to mention centralized government.
And yes, I'm sure someone is wondering what about the engineering arts the Romans had. I would say they were lost mostly from the collapse of the central government. After all, if theres nobody to pay the bills, the engineers aren't going to be all that eager to build things, and if nobody is travelling, why build and maintain the roads, you'll probably just get your throat cut by a robber in the forest anyway.
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28-07-2002 21:12
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