29-07-2002 07:33									#1
	"Smart" AI Tactic under 1.29f Suffering from ads?

I just finished my 3rd game under 1.29f. Emperor, small map, 6 civs (including me), all random. I ended up playing as Gandhi against Hiawatha, Montezuma, Tokugawa (all three direct neighbors), Mao and Abraham. Map ended up a pangea, maximum water. For a variety of reasons, I could not make war early and free up some building room - I started very close to both the Japanese and the Aztecs. The game ended up being a pure builder game, with a total of +/- 12 turns of war for me the entire time.

Long after Mao and Tokugawa had been eliminated, both Montezuma and Hiawatha were dismembering Abe's rapidly diminsihing empire. I had just discovered Refining, and, surprise - surprise, discovered that I had no source of oil (I was far and away the smallest empire in the game). I was quite pleasantly surprised that I could buy one of Montezuma's 2 excess oils for 1 gpt and thought to myself "no oil, no problem; the AI obviously understands that the excess oil does nothing for it and is willing to take anything for it."

Not long after, the combined American (as in continental) tribes wiped out Abe. Some turns later, with a very large Iroquois empire, a very large Aztec empire, and a small Indian empire the only remaining civs, Montezuma asked to renegotiate our oil deal. No problem. Only this time, my foreign advisor informed me that Monty would view 75 gpt as an insult. I didn't bother determining his minimum price, because I figured I'd trade for one of Hiawatha's excess oils. I also gave up on Hiawatha when 75 gpt rendered my foreign advisor to a quivering mass warning of insults. I was just about to discover Motorized Transportation, and could not secure a source of oil!

I later concluded that the AI Montezuma had been very shrewd with his initial trade at 1 gpt. I had played an honorable game to that point, and by giving me oil at 1 gpt, Monty may have "felt" that I was essentially agreeing to a no-attack deal for a minimum of 20 turns, so he needn't woory about our common border as he conquered Abe. With Abe gone and the world down to 3 empires, Monty saw no reason to supply a foe with oil.

I have never seen this sort of behavior from the AI before, and was very pleasantly surprised. I certainly won't argue that the AI algorithm worked in the manner I suggest (i.e., buying a "onfident" peace now in order to screw the trading partner later - a very shrewd strategic decision), but in choosing to look at the behavior through such rose-colored glasses made my desire to win the game all the more intense -- by feeling a certain "respect" for the decision-making (and undoubtedly superimposing my own preferred view of the happenings), I got a great deal more entertainment from this particular game.

Anyone else see AI behavior which you might describe as "devilishly smart enough to approximate a human decision" (even if you're not convinced it was a "smart decision" so much as an intersting coincidence)?

Catt

	29-07-2002 08:49									#2
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Fascinating.

The crux is the initial deal at 1gpt. Why so inexpensive? I don't credit the AI with the Machiavellian intent one might... Supply and demand?

Perchance the oil is not too far from a coast?

	29-07-2002 11:33									#3
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Catt,
So who won?
Don't leave us hanging. Please.

	29-07-2002 14:55									#4
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Could you build any oil-requiring units when you got the 1 gpt deal for oil? Since you were researching motorised transportation when the deal came up for renewal, I'd guess you didn't have the immediately preceeding tech (to build transports and destroyers, the first oil units) when the first oil deal was negotiated. In which case, at the time you bought the first lot of oil, it was completely useless to you (even though you'd discover relevant techs during the 20 turns). I've had the same experience selling oil to AI civs - until they have the techs to build destroyers, they won't pay peanuts for it.

	29-07-2002 16:49									#5
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Vulture, may be I have a "memory fault" in my brain cells but IIRC I can't trade a resource if I haven't discovered the tech that reveal it...

	29-07-2002 20:40									#6
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Adm.Naismith: my point is that refining, which gives you the ability to see oil, doesn't allow you to do anything with it (nor does steel). Only when you get to combustion can you build any oil based units. So once you've researched refining you can trade oil, or trade for it, but not actually used it for anything. It's in those circumstances that I've seen 1 gpt deals for oil. It seems to me as though the AI determines the value of the oil in terms of what it can build if it has access to it. If it has refining but not combustion, then it decides that oil is pretty much valueless.

	30-07-2002 00:02									#7
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quote: Originally posted by vulture Could you build any oil-requiring units when you got the 1 gpt deal for oil? Since you were researching motorised transportation when the deal came up for renewal, I'd guess you didn't have the immediately preceeding tech (to build transports and destroyers, the first oil units) when the first oil deal was negotiated.

I don't recall - its possible that I could have already discovered Combustion at the time of the deal, but it seems to me more likely that your explanation is correct - I probably didn't have any use whatsoever for oil at the time I made the 1 gpt trade (I hadn't ever seen a 1gpt deal like this before). I did have a great use for the trade deal - I needed to stay on good terms with all my neighbors and friendly trades help that along.

quote: Originally posted by Jaybe So who won? Don't leave us hanging. Please.

I did, via spaceship launch. I had enough defenders and arty, and was so culturally rich a nation (well-expanded borders) that I was pretty sure I could fight any invasion to a stalemate if it ever came (offensive war would have been difficult, if not impossible). I saved up gold for upgrades, finally bit the bullet and traded for oil, and rapidly upgraded my infantry to mech infantry and built a corps of 16 tanks. I eventually had a source of oil appear in my territory (after the original oil deal expired) which allowed me to upgrade tanks to MA.

I pre-built the UN and completed it a turn or two before Hiawatha. I held the vote at every opportunity, and at every opportunity the three civs voted for themselves.

I stayed about 1 - 1.5 techs behind the AI from Motorized Transportation onwards, but I researched only the spaceship techs - the AI researched both Recyclying and Stealth. I can't recall whether the AI had researched Nuclear Power or whether it was going after Miniturization / Genetics and the Genetics wonders as I have seen it do pre-1.29f -- IIRC Soren indicated that the AI would be better about pursuing a SS victory - maybe it is, but it won't focus solely on SS techs, that's for sure.

Was a very interesting game - with the only victory possibility a SS victory, I needed to maximize incoming gold and tech research spending. This meant some very nerve-racking decisions on my standing army - I never did build more than the 16 tanks / MA as I didn't want to pay more support costs. Because of the small map size (at least this has been my experience on tiny and small maps) adjusting the research slider 10% in either direction often changed the research time by 2 turns - even going from 7 to 5 turns (i.e., down towards the max where slider adjustment tends to have incrementally smaller effects). I had Montezuma demand Nuclear Power from me just as I completed it - I held my breath and said no, and fortunately he was bluffing. I researched the Laser in 4 turns at a massive deficit and launched through a pre-built tactical nuke.

Catt

	30-07-2002 19:34									#8
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I think from reading this quickly that Vulture's on the right track. Not only will the AI give away oil before tanks are available, but they really won't give you anything for it ahead of that time. If memory serves, the availability of navel techs doesn't get them excited about oil, just the tanks. I'm not sure if the pangea map enters the AI decision process. It should do. Who really cares about battleships on that map?

	31-07-2002 02:48									#9
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quote: Originally posted by vulture Adm.Naismith: my point is that refining, which gives you the ability to see oil, doesn't allow you to do anything with it (nor does steel).

Ok vulture, now I see your point. thanks for clearing it for me.

BTW, I never noticed great effect about tech trade, mainly because most of others civ consider me with a "furious mood" that usually reply "no way!" to any of my proposal