29-07-2002 11:28									#1
	War Academy: SMC's Plans, 925 BC: The French Front Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Citizens of Apolytonia, our war with America is over, with all of our objectives being met. We have captured Washington (Del Monte), and New York (Gaia), and were given 2 other citys in the peace deal.

We were unable to acquire Chichago, and Insence Valley, but no matter. It shall be ours in good time.

There are several threads about "what to do now", and if you read through them you'll see I (and several others, namely Sir Ralph) are in favor of a war with France.

the DIA now see their chance to come out and openly demand many cultural improvements. Ninot himself called this "a nice period now to build on what we have, and expand peacefully."

I agree, it is definately the time to expand. We should pop out some settlers and fill in the gaps in our newly "acquired" terrain.

I also agree, temples will be quite useful for general happiness / more workers / culture.

But we canot let this overshadow our current suitation, which although a lot better, is still rather bleak.

We are now roughly the same size as most of the AIs, but not nearly as organized. Our infastructure is lacking. Again, I'll agree that this is another area we should spend some time on.

BUT YOU MUST STAY FOCUSED

France is our closest neighbor (ignoring America completely). They are one of the larger civs. They have some decent land. Iron. Horses. Wines. Loads of great stuff, sitting in front of us.

Our vallant army of Archers that are now attending a festival in Gaia will not do for long. As valliant as they are, the bow is becomming outdated, and we are becomming outmanned. We now have the ability to build Horsemen, and in a little while we will have the ability to build Swordsmen, both great weapons for waging war.

We cannot lose sight of our expansion. I see almost no way of completely "peacefull" expansion.

Many would say "build cities towards the ivory coast", but in my opinion, thats a loooooong way away. I'm not the Imperial Expansion minister, but thats a crapload of turns away, turns where Greece, America, etc could grab it.

What I propose is that we secure the Eastern Portion of France for ourselves. We capture a few key cities and sue for a few other ones.

This will probably also yield some techs / money / what have you. Always good.

Finally, such an undertaking would grant us access to the Southern sub-continent if we should so choose to colonize there.

this map is current, pre-war france.

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Last edited by Inverse Icarus on 29-07-2002 at 11:40

	29-07-2002 11:32									#2
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And this is what I would hope to secure after the proposed war.

Marsilles (north of Paris) is also a probable city to take, but this is a "minimalist" objective list.

NOTE:

the following cities would ot be autorazed:
Orleans
Marsilles
Paris

therefore, i would suggest taking Orleans first, then Paris, and then consider Marsilles. Then we would sue for peace, demanding Chartres, and whatever else we can get.

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	29-07-2002 11:38									#3
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Useful Links (updated whenever we make new ones)
Which Weapon To Use on France?
The Viability of War Chariots

Last edited by Inverse Icarus on 30-07-2002 at 00:23

	29-07-2002 11:40									#4
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(it's 2:40 AM Local time, so i'm going to bed for the night. i'll pick this up tomorrow. sorry but i'm tired )

[expansion room]

you may now post / discuss.

	29-07-2002 12:39									#5
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I wholeheartly agree. But hit early. Don't hang around till we have swordsmen ready.

Hit fast.
Hit hard.
Hit early.

Time matters!

	29-07-2002 13:51									#6
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I agree with Sir Ralph. The French are too close for our own good.

We have one opportunity now to catch these civs in REX mode. We must seize it.

	29-07-2002 14:11									#7
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Many know that I'm not much of a war monger, but I think we *should* launch a limited campaign to prune France. However, this campaign should be executed in a rather unique fashion. We need to launch a two (or three ) pronged attack simultaneously. This is quick and insures we secure the objectives. We would need at least two army stacks from what I can estimate. (Granted, I am no warrior, I would leave that to our SMC to properly prepare).

If we do this, it would be a massive undertaking, something not seen in our young empire's history.

Domestic Plans
However, I do think we should consolidate what we currently have gained during this war. I believe all newly aquired cities should build a temple *immediately*. This will take quite a few turns, but we need to make sure we establish culture in these cities to reduce the chance of a culture flip. With the jungle cities (Gaia, Philadelphia, Atlanta), this will take quite awhile. However, once that is complete, we need to build defenders in those cities. Our core cities (Apolyton, Termina, Tassagrad, BananaHQ) should be our primary producers of the armies. I haven't done the math yet, but if we focus them on producing military units, we should be able to field another impressive army quite quickly (plus we have veteran units left over from our victorious American War to add as well). Also, our workers should build a transit network to connect our empire completely. Especially getting the iron at Ubergorsk (though it is not a neccessary priority for the war).

Consequences
Can our reputation afford to take another hit. People will remember that we savagely attacked America. If we do the same to France, surely civilizations will think twice about dealing with us in the future?

These are my thoughts, but my bottom line is to go for it (after we are properly prepared of course).

	29-07-2002 14:46									#8
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Going to war is considered normal, as long as is declared in time and not a cowardly sneak attack or RoP abuse. We won't suffer any diplomatic or trade penalties from this, even if we start 10 wars. The worst what can happen is, the AI's can be annoyed and some furious. Who cares?

	29-07-2002 14:55									#9
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Domestic Plans However, I do think we should consolidate what we currently have gained during this war. I believe all newly aquired cities should build a temple *immediately*. This will take quite a few turns, but we need to make sure we establish culture in these cities to reduce the chance of a culture flip. With the jungle cities (Gaia, Philadelphia, Atlanta), this will take quite awhile. However, once that is complete, we need to build defenders in those cities. Our core cities (Apolyton, Termina, Tassagrad, BananaHQ) should be our primary producers of the armies. I haven't done the math yet, but if we focus them on producing military units, we should be able to field another impressive army quite quickly (plus we have veteran units left over from our victorious American War to add as well). Also, our workers should build a transit network to connect our empire completely. Especially getting the iron at Ubergorsk (though it is not a neccessary priority for the war).

- Building up and preparing for war can go in one time. While the newly acquired cities will build (and later poprush) temples, our core cities produce units and settlers.

- Defenders for the new cities are already built. We have thought about this long ago. Del Monte and Gaia have already defenders, The one to Philadelphia is on the way and the one for Atlanta will soon be built.

- For connecting the iron in Ubergorsk, I would prefer to build an intermediate city (even though it may be far from optimal placed), to make sure all tiles of the connecting roads go through our territory. Or else, if Munich expands, they can cut off our iron access in case of war. This would be deadly. The city should be placed close to Munich, with the second purpose to culturally squeeze Munich. I will post a thread about this at evening.

	29-07-2002 21:41									#10
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France is the obvious choice (however nothing should stop us for taking our America as soon as reputation allows). The french wine now seems more accessible than incense valley. It's always good to control more mountains. I'm not sure why, although I heard of some green glowing thing there.

	29-07-2002 21:57									#11
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Many know that I'm not much of a war monger, but I think we *should* launch a limited campaign to prune France. However, this campaign should be executed in a rather unique fashion. We need to launch a two (or three ) pronged attack simultaneously. This is quick and insures we secure the objectives. We would need at least two army stacks from what I can estimate. (Granted, I am no warrior, I would leave that to our SMC to properly prepare).

I think that WhiteBandit may have a point here. It would take some time to knock out Paris by driving straight for it, and then hook to Orleans. Perhaps what we should do is start with one very large stack, near Paris, and move south toward Paris with most of it. However, one spearman and 2-3 archers will go south, and then east to orleans to attack it right after we get the primary stack next to Paris. This ensures that the secondary stack can act as backup if needed.

edit: My bad, go for Orleans first, and then attack Paris, it is more logical. I forgot about the cultural block from Rheims and Paris.

	29-07-2002 22:17									#12
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I agree with this plan. We could use the resources they have. Plus, Chartres is awfully close to our capitol-- if we don't seize it, they may use it later. (Assuming they're smart enough to do that.)

After we... "reduce"... the Frenchies, I propose that we go after the Greeks. Then again, who else is near us? (I've been out for a while, and haven't seen the maps of our eastern frontiers-- if we have any recent maps.)

	29-07-2002 23:38									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov I agree with this plan. We could use the resources they have. Plus, Chartres is awfully close to our capitol-- if we don't seize it, they may use it later. (Assuming they're smart enough to do that.) After we... "reduce"... the Frenchies, I propose that we go after the Greeks. Then again, who else is near us? (I've been out for a while, and haven't seen the maps of our eastern frontiers-- if we have any recent maps.)

i'm very against attacking the greeks, especially if you want me to use archers on those damn hoplites

	30-07-2002 00:15									#14
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grrr... i forgot you can't add attachments to "expansion room" posts without attaching a placeholder image, so I'll continue here.

Major Objectives

• The Capture of Orleans
  
• The Capture of Paris
  
• The Aquisition of Rheims
  
• The Aquisition of Chartres
  
• Unimpeeded Access to Abananaba Minor (the sub-continent)
  

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	30-07-2002 00:16									#15
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It would also be possible to use one stack to take out Orleans, and then move on to Paris, but where's the fun in that?

My strategy could cripple the French in one turn, and it would get us some galleys to use AFTER the operation is over with.

	30-07-2002 00:22									#16
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Looking at my last plan and the Geography of France, I'd also like to put it to the War Academy to look at the possible use of War Chariots in the War for France.

I have dismissed them before because of the large jungle seperating us, but with my current galley plan, we could land some war chariots in France near Orleans, and have a large operational range.

Check out this thread to discuss The Viability of War Chariots

	30-07-2002 01:01									#17
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I'm not a member of the War Academy, but I like the plan involving a cultural buildup in our newly captured cities (temples) while building a force to capture France in our inner cities. This is the time period when the AI begins it's rapid expansion -- by crippling France (and now having crippled America) we can make a sizable nitch for ourselves to expand into. I think this would be the best way to satisfy the desire for both peaceful expansion and war.

-- adaMada

	30-07-2002 04:50									#18
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I have done some planning of my own and here it is( apologizes to uber, i saw your plan after I made mine, so no offense is intended).
Here it goes
Curently we have 5 archers, 1spearman for a stack
Now here is my proposed build order
Apoly-horse,Harbor,horse( could be before harbor)
Termina- archer, temple, horse
Banana hq- spear,temple,horse
Tass - archer, horse, harbor
all other cities wait until 20 shields from temple then pop rush, except phily, that will take 10 turns to get to 2
Now this plan will leave us at 7arch, 2 spear in 3 turns
Another horse will be available at 5 turns and can make up the distance and catch up so we have
7 arch, 1horse, 2 spear to begin assault.
According to my calculations these can all be at philly in 10 turns or less(see below)
4 turns later we can invade france and move toward orleans.
Now for workers:
we should road as much as we can, I see 2 groups of workers, one 3am worker s of ny and our other group of workers 3our,3 others(the last can be bought from america this turn)
1st group road current square 3 turns(Turn4)
then one west road square(Turn 8)
then one west rd square (turn12)
This will complete rd to philly
2nd group go straigt north of current road and
divided into 3 groups of 1our,1purchased(these can road a square in 3 turns
first group starts rd in turn 5(completes turn 7)
2nd group goes east and starts roading turn 6(completes turn 8)
3rd group goes one more east and roads starting turn 7 finishes turn 9)
The 1st and second group move eastward to where third group is and then all go east repeating process one more time and we have a road to east city.(turn15), then one crew goes to rd iron.

This is my plan, but ofcourse I am just one citizen.
Aggie

	30-07-2002 04:57									#19
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX i'm very against attacking the greeks, especially if you want me to use archers on those damn hoplites

Right then, the Germans. Get Munich from them (it's cutting off Ubergorsk from the rest of our empire, no?). Or finish off the Americans. If we follow OPD's suggestion (building warriors, then upgrading to swordsmen), either should be fairly easy.

	30-07-2002 05:24									#20
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I second Uber's idea of disembarking units from our galleys. It will be efficient, fun, and will let us galleys at disposal once the war is over.

I also suggest we fill these galleys with swordsmen ala OPD. Building these galleys will take some time, esp. since we won't build them in Apolyton, but likely in Termina or Tassagrad.
We'd need 16 turns to build 2 galleys in Termina once it reaches size 3. And roading to Ubergorsk would take roughly 13 turns if we allocate 5 industrious workers on it (we could get one more by buying it from Abe, for 28 gold, this turn)
Attacking Paris with disembarked swordsmen, hile our archer stack takes out Orleans seems a good idea to me (Paris is likely to be more defended, and a capital has defense bonuses of a city).

	30-07-2002 08:04									#21
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For most part, I agree with Uber's plan, however I also think we should prepare some sort of defense for a possible (note POSSIBLE here) war with greece, which seems to be larger than france, I haven't really tested the diff level so I dont reaaly know if the comp usually attacks but anyway it can do no harm to be prepared.

Taking France would be very goo cuz of the resources, if im not blind i can see wines and incense near (not sure about that one) and I think we could really use the resources, especially iron, and also the access to new lands, and the troop exp, so in conclusion:

KILL FRANCE, KILL THEM ALL (or at least until they surrender)

	30-07-2002 08:29									#22
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I like Uber's plan. But it would take a long time to prepare. We'd have to allow 16 turns for building 2 galleys (assuming Spiff's calculations are correct). Then more time to place a strike force (to the 16 turns, add another 6 turns at least to load, sail, unload galleys, then have our landed force march in on mountain route to outskirts of Paris). In other words, we'd probably be off of a Sir Ralph/oscilating war timetable. I don't know if France would be still in ai-rex mode, by the time we could stage this kind of plan. If we will have lost the element of surprise, perhaps we should beef up the second pincer force, and make it horsemen. Then we hit France that much harder, from two directions.
Btw, the maximum attack force moving on Paris would be 4 (two galley loads), in this strategy. If one were spear, only three archers would be attacking the capital -- not an overwhelming offensive, considering it would be the most important blow we would strike. Or we could send in 4 sword (I like the sound of that better). (That means making roads to Ubergorsk a priority.)

	30-07-2002 08:51									#23
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RB: we could drop off one group, and come back for another...

	30-07-2002 09:16									#24
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Jdd, that would eat up several turns, however, if we move those units to be picked up as close to Orleans as posible , then we might be able to save some time from building two. However, having two allows us to do the Uber Gambit, and get to Uber isle, banana willing.

edit: I checked, it should cost us about 4 turns to pull it off.

	30-07-2002 09:39									#25
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4 turns would be worth the time and effort it would take to create double the galleys

	30-07-2002 09:56									#26
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It does look as though we'd be able to create a staging area in the mountains south of Paris, below French territorial borders.

	30-07-2002 11:20									#27
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Stuff the Horsemen/War Chariots. If we build some, fine, but our strategy should rely more on Swordmen and the remaining Archers.

The Galley idea is neat and would be rather entertaining to watch (imagine) in progress, but perhaps 4 units will not be quite enough of a guarantee of taking Paris quickly. What predictions do you all have for if we attacked in a rather more linear fashion, ie march straight through everything to get to Paris?

	30-07-2002 13:22									#28
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Well, I am a DIA member and I'm not that much of a warmonger, but man, you guys are good!

Case Teal (the American campaign) was nothing short of brilliantly executed! I believe the results pretty much speak for themselves.

Now for Case Pink - or the attack on France... well, I still think it's a good idea - provided that it does not hamper efforts to consolidate our position on the land we have already taken. From what's been posted so far, it seems like you people mean to take care of both of these businesses, and so you have my support.

Now I have to work, but I hope to be back later.

With all these bright minds at work, the odds are looking better every day!

	30-07-2002 17:40									#29
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I like uber plans in general, its just that I think my plan has two huge advantages, time and simplicity. With my plan we could be invading in 14 turns. With galleys we'll be 20+ turns. Both plans will get us to the same place.
I do like dual attacks and amphibious invasions, however, I think ubers plan is too complicated. One rule I've come up with is to keep it simple, and my plan does. However nothing says we can't follow my plan and add a galley and then when we get iron upgrade to swordsmen and attack as a second wave. Since galleys would cut down the travel time.
Aggie

	31-07-2002 16:24									#30
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just a thought would it be possible to get a settler and set up a base camp next to the shore adjacent to the mountain range (east of the horses) and get a ROP and move all our warriors there until the rop expires. in the meanwhile we could build barracks and harbour. once we up grade all the warriors we move 'em out and repack the city.