29-07-2002 11:37									#1
	War Academy: French Front: Archers / Swordsmen / Horsemen Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

the main SMC report is over here (new widnow)

This poll is for the consideration of weaponry for the proposed war with france. Please read any discussion below before voting.

NOTE:
The SMC Dismisses War Chariots because jungle / mountains prohibit their use in France. Plus, we do not want a golden age right now.

starters:

Swordsmen
3/2 is a fairly strong unit
Slow on grasslands
Fairly Expensive
Iron is Far Away

Horsemen
2/1 is a decent unit
Fast on grasslands
Fairly Expensive
We have Horses already
Retreating

Archers
2/1 is a decent unit
Slow on grasslands
Fairly Cheap
No resource requirement
Need a spearman to guard them.

	29-07-2002 11:51									#2
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a combination, of course, but mainly those heavy hitting swordsmen.

	29-07-2002 12:34									#3
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I'd say, fill up our archer army and rush the French with them. After the first 6/2 wave leaves, fill up with horsemen and later swordsmen. The spearmen we build, are not lost, we need them as defenders for the cities. We have to build them anyway, even if we attack with horsemen and swordsmen.

There's nothing more effective than an early archer rush. Cheap and deadly, as seen. And consider the fact, that our attacks went not even optimal.

	29-07-2002 13:53									#4
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Yes. Archers then Horse.

	29-07-2002 15:23									#5
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lol we could attack the french with archers within a few turns and probably take a few cities.

Personally I favour horses afterall were only going to be facing spearmen.

Would the SMC consider building catapults with swordsmen/archres as another alternative?

	29-07-2002 16:23									#6
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If we manage to make a good system of roads, i think horsemen would be the best choice. They are fast, they retreat, and they wont become obsolete until the beginning of the industrial age ( with all ther upgrades).

	29-07-2002 16:54									#7
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This really depends on WHEN we start the next war. If we wait until the Middle Ages to pick another fight, we're probably best off using swordsmen (by that time we should have a road connecting Banana HQ with Ubergorsk). Of course, if we plan to attack early, it's best to rush more archers and overwhelm them rather than wait for swordsmen.

	29-07-2002 20:41									#8
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I seriously doubt that we will be able to take swordsmen ovber there. So maybe we should settle for another quick Archer attack, it seems that the AI simply doesn´t know what hits it. Then later we should start building up horsemen as an attack force, the widening frontiers will also demand more movement points to get to the frontier.

	29-07-2002 20:48									#9
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I say attack - soon - with archers & reinforce w. horse/swords

	29-07-2002 20:54									#10
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We have 4 Archers left, correct? I say build two more for another 6/2 attacking army, then start on the horses. This can easily leave enough production here or there to satisfy a few of the peacemongers by now. (how many cities are needed on a huge map for the FP? I normally play standard...)

	29-07-2002 21:03									#11
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It would be a pity seeing those swordsmen become completely obsolete in the next era. IMHO we should choose horsemen instead since they have a long line of upgrades and would save us much trouble as well as shields in turns to come.

	29-07-2002 21:14									#12
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	29-07-2002 21:29									#13
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We don't want our archers to go to waste. Our options with them are attack France (duh), wait 20 turns and then attack America, or eventually pay for upgrades. While I am an infrastructure freak, I see our current point in time as good for carving out a small piece of France, but absolutely as quickly as possible. The six turn war with America was a great example; swift. I find uber's picture most... happy

What I'd do (although I suck at civ):
All cities that do not currently have temple and barracks, create them in that order. Cities which have both improvements make archers while the road is being made to iron, at which time switch to swordsmen. After the first batch comes out, we'd be more than ready to take on France. If this turns out to take too much time, a preemptive attack with archers against france. After a couple of cities are captured, peace. By that time it will be safe to sweep up the remaining American cities.

	29-07-2002 21:33									#14
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I agree with archers/horse. We already have a (nearly) complete archer/spearman stack that should be used before the archers become an outdated waste of resources. The horse are a present investment for a future knight attack against Greece, as well as a better bet for taking the French cities with minimal losses (retreat)

	29-07-2002 23:49									#15
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I'm rooting for archers - horsemen myself, but i voted horsemen, so take it as you will.

as for catapults, they're wheeled units just like our chariots. they'd have an awfully hard time walking around those jungles / mountains surrounding our targets.

	30-07-2002 00:31									#16
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We have to do something with those archers and we have to do it now.
If we just fortify them somewhere and keep them for a later attack they'll just consume maintenance money. If we discard them for shields it will substantially lower the size of our military and our neighbors will start demanding gold and techs from us more often or threat to declare war.
If we attack France (maybe add 2 additional archers to the army before we attack so we'll have a 6/2 army) we'll risk a failed assault but at least we'll be doing something with our archers rather than let them sit idly and consume maintenance money and we might win some cities and gold.
Therefore I suggest that we attack the Frenchies as soon as possible, but that's just my two cents.

	30-07-2002 00:47									#17
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You left out the main benefit of horseman Uber

horseman->knight->calvary

swordsman->dead end
archer->longbowman (4/1)->dead end

Given that we'll need the knights to beat the greeks..... I had to vote the horseman as the best long term investment.

Edit: Oops forgot about longbowman, added those in, but I still think horseman in prep for knights is alot better long term choice.

	30-07-2002 01:11									#18
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IF (BIg IF) we go to war with France, we most likely should use horses, since our use of Swordmen is in the future. After Chatres, the French have about 2-3 size 2-3 cities before getting to Paris. They also have roads linking them all and may very soon have the ability to make swordmen themselves. Thus, we need a quick force, both to make inroads towards Paris, and to retreat in the face of stronger enemy forces, and since we are the human player, we could use our tactical superiority on the field to beat any swordmen or horsemen the French use.

	30-07-2002 01:23									#19
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Most of the way horsemen go through jungle and are not faster than archers. And the ability to retreat and get 100% destroyed in a counterattack (we all know those pesky poprushed archers) isn't worth the 10 more shields they cost. After the archer army took the size-1 cities out of the way, the second wave of horsemen, as I described, can go to Paris.

This is about the war with France in particular and considering terrain. Overall I agree, the ability to move fast, to retreat and to get upgraded makes horsemen stronger than archers.

Btw: I use archer attacks in almost every game, but never upgrade them to longbowmen though. At some point I stop to produce them, and they die out in later wars, dominated by swordsmen.

	30-07-2002 01:39									#20
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SirRalph: There is only 1 size 1 city in the way of Paris, Chartres, Then there are two bigger cities, size 2-3, Orleans, and I believe Rouen. Might be as big as Washington by the time we can even contemplate getting to them. This is why I think we should go in with horsemen already as part of the army. As you yourself said in the turnchat, one more turn of war with the Americans and they might have retaken wahisngton. They gave up because they only had 1 city left worth a damn. Even if we take Paris (city #4), the french have at least 2 size 3 or above cities further away. They will have little incentive to negotiate and we will most likely face a counterattack.

	30-07-2002 01:52									#21
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On my map, Chartres and Orleans (has culture and can be taken!) are size-1 cities on the way to Paris, and Rheims and Marseilles size-1 cities on the way to the wines we need. All must be taken or destroyed. There's only a small chance to catch AI cities not size-1 in the REX phase. If a war starts, they will poprush spearmen and archers, till size 1 is reached, just as did the Americans.

EDIT: I forgot about counterattacks. In the REX phase, the AIs dont want prolongued wars and quickly agree to talk and to make peace. Just as Abe did, in a very moronic way, because he was up to retake Washington (or at least had a chance to). Instead, he gladly made peace and gave 2 cities extra. And Joan is not a bit smarter.

	30-07-2002 10:07									#22
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I concur with several others:
1) finish the archer stack and send it off;
2) build horsemen for the second wave.
(So I'm voting "horsemen" on the poll.)