29-07-2002 12:38									#1
	"lending" Leonardo's Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'm not an absolute friend of Leonardo's - it's nice to upgrade settlers, but it's not so nice to lose vet status for your units. So why not "lend" Leonardo's from an AI civ for a while?
When I've got the SoL I switch to Fundy to make some ca$h. I need the money to bribe the Leo city. I wait till I have explosives - whow! engineers and musketeers! - then I disband all the units in the Leo city (1 per turn) and sell city improvements (1 per turn).
It's difficult to defend a single city in the core of an AI empire.
But I can keep my vet iron clads and crusaders for a long time.

And if you ask how can I bribe an AI city far away from my territory:
I always have some triremes/galeons with two or three diplos sailing the seas - my "special forces" :

	29-07-2002 14:16									#2
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Except that more often than not the three toed sloth builds WoWs in its capital...

SG[1]

	29-07-2002 14:31									#3
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@SG[1]
As you know the AI sometimes build WoW in some small cities with low(!) production - I often wonder how they can build it without using caravans. In one of my last game i bribed a size 5 city on an small island - Adam Smith's was mine! The Greek managed to take it back, but three turns later I rebribed it :
A long time ago I bribed a size 1 city (Production: 1 shield) with MPE in it ...
We all know the AI is cheating but sometimes it's more than ridiculous.

	29-07-2002 14:56									#4
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Ramses - the received wisdom on these boards is that the AI uses insta vans - ie he builds a wonder in several cities at once and as soon as the TOTAL of shilds is sufficient the WoW appears in that city that added the last shield - emptying the shield boxes of all the participating cities - I don't think this has been proven, but it is pretty convincing...

SG[1]

	29-07-2002 15:10									#5
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I've heard about a theory that says:
An AI city needs x turns to build a wonder (x depends on level) no matter how many shields are produced by that city.
I've seen the AI inventing a tech and completing the wonder the next turn. So you can build the wonder by yourself if you manage to steal the tech AND you have the needed camels/freights or money - who hadn't done this yes?
My theory about those 2-turn-wonders is:
From a certain point of the game the AI will complete the wonder that fast if no other civ has researched the concernig tech.
I know that the AI loves to begin a wonder in several cities - maybe the shields are added. But it would be interesting to know if the AI needs the same amount of shields as a human player ... I wouldn't believe it.

	29-07-2002 20:51									#6
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I believe SG[1] has it - the wonder gets constructed in several cities at once. One of the gets the wonder once the total shields produced exceed the build cost. The AI would be incompetent with camels, this is it's crutch.

As for needing the same number of shields as the human, it's doubtful. Higher difficulty levels give the AI production bonus, it likely applies to wonders, too.

	29-07-2002 21:18									#7
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quote: Originally posted by ramses II. I've heard about a theory that says: An AI city needs x turns to build a wonder (x depends on level) no matter how many shields are produced by that city.

This I doubt. In the first democracy game, we had to wait a seeming eternity for the Egyptians to complete Adam Smith's in a city that produced only 3 shields (so we could take it ). We peeked into the city twice, iirc, and progress was not faster than expected.

	30-07-2002 01:02									#8
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Funny, I just "borrowed" Leo's in the game I'm currently playing. I just had no intention of giving it back, though, because I had just developed conscription and was getting tired of settlers. I had SunTzu (which is why I didn't get Leo's BTW, Damn AI shortcycled on me) so I had a crack force of crooks and clads. Taking the city was painful, but not impossible (besides, the vikings were VERY strong and needed a punch in the nose). I figured I could hold it since I had conscription and was just about to get tactics. It also turned out to be a stepping stone to my crushing of their kingdom a couple (OK, a lot, they were a good distance off) turns later.

	30-07-2002 01:17									#9
	Put an end to popups!

I'm not an absolute friend of Leonardo's - it's nice to upgrade settlers, but it's not so nice to lose vet status for your units. So why not "lend" Leonardo's from an AI civ for a while?
When I've got the SoL I switch to Fundy to make some ca$h. I need the money to bribe the Leo city. I wait till I have explosives - whow! engineers and musketeers! - then I disband all the units in the Leo city (1 per turn) and sell city improvements (1 per turn).
It's difficult to defend a single city in the core of an AI empire.
But I can keep my vet iron clads and crusaders for a long time.

but when you disband the city, doesn't Leo's still (inconveniently) belong to you? WoW's can't be destroyed or sold. Do you then let the enemy take it back after you've disbanded the city and sold the improvements?

	30-07-2002 02:40									#10
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quote: but when you disband the city, doesn't Leo's still (inconveniently) belong to you? WoW's can't be destroyed or sold. Do you then let the enemy take it back after you've disbanded the city and sold the improvements?

No... destroy a city with a wonder in it, and you destroy that wonder. That's the frustrating thing about conquering small AI cities that have a wonder you like.

	30-07-2002 03:25									#11
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Oh...I've only ever destroyed size 1 or 2 cities. Or, more often I take a city wit hmultiple wonders and the AI moves the one I wanted to some other city, leaving me with the lamest (and probably obsolete) one.

thanks.

	30-07-2002 03:53									#12
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quote: Originally posted by schweick Oh...I've only ever destroyed size 1 or 2 cities. Or, more often I take a city wit hmultiple wonders and the AI moves the one I wanted to some other city, leaving me with the lamest (and probably obsolete) one. thanks.

The AI can move construction of a wonder to another city - but once a wonder is built, it can't be moved.

Wonders in a city can't be destroyed the way improvements can be, through sabotage, inciting, or conquest. If you acquire a city the wonders will be intact - but if the city is destroyed (through capture or disbanding the city by building a settler at size 1) the wonders in it are gone forever.

Having said that - one time effects like those of Manhattan or Darwin's aren't reversed by destroying the relevant wonder. Ongoing effects (like those of Pyramids or Mikes) cease with the wonder's destruction.

	30-07-2002 04:11									#13
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I just thought it was acase of AI cheatism. I also dimly remember reading the manual saying the game would prevent you from taking multiple wonders unless it was that enemy's last city. (That's what happened in the game I'm recalling--I got one at a time until I got their last city and then got three.)

I also had one game where I waited outside their LAST city for them to finish a wonder that was two shields from completion, so I could take the wonder. They had a per-turn shield count of five, and they WOULD NOT finish the @#$% thing. Also, they kept making one more musketeer but still keeping the same amount of shields towards the wonder.

I'm playing MGE, by the way.

	30-07-2002 04:30									#14
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, those last cheats (shield box not emptying, free changes in production without penalty) I know. But if you aren't sure about what you're getting when you sack a city, confirm the contents with a spy before you capture it. All the wonders should remain. I've never heard of that 1-wonder-at-a-time rule

	30-07-2002 04:36									#15
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Yes, in the second game I was checking the city with a spy every three or four turns--that's how I knew how many shields away they were. Grr.

	30-07-2002 18:43									#16
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schweik, the mysterious musketeer construction while a wonder is being built is due (iirc) to the AI's ability to convert gold to shields with no penalty. If you have saves, check the treasury of the AI before and after. (You might need to cheat to find out their per turn income).

The only way to beat an AI at this is to punish it badly. It runs out of gold, and suddenly the reinforcements no longer arrive.

	01-08-2002 19:21									#17
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and I thought this was a topic about sharing Leo's in MP

	02-08-2002 00:05									#18
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I had my question answered a while ago, feel free.
And thanks, everybody!

	02-08-2002 00:56									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Main_Brain and I thought this was a topic about sharing Leo's in MP

Last I heard, that was considered a cheat in the MP forum.

	02-08-2002 04:31									#20
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Nah, depends on what rules you agree upon.

	02-08-2002 04:48									#21
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HOw do I take myself off the email list for this thread?

	02-08-2002 04:58									#22
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quote: Originally posted by atawa Nah, depends on what rules you agree upon.

But of course...

	02-08-2002 05:00									#23
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Found it, sorry.

	04-08-2002 09:27									#24
	Remove this text

or what rules you choose to ignore