29-07-2002 22:00									#1
	Medieval Infantry Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

In the Firaxis Chat a Medieval Infantry unit was mentioned. It seemed to have preliminary statistics 4/2/1.

What do we know about it?

Shouldn't it be called "Man-at-Arms" or something?

	29-07-2002 22:03									#2
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I think they're still looking for a permanent name, I'm sure they'll see yours.

	29-07-2002 23:49									#3
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Maybe "footsoldier", "commoner", or "squire".

	30-07-2002 01:27									#4
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How about "useless unit nobody will ever build"...

	30-07-2002 02:01									#5
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Yes Caliban, if those are the actual stats of the unit, you could well be right. It isn't much better than an immortal or the longbowman.

	30-07-2002 02:12									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Caliban How about "useless unit nobody will ever build"...

You know, I didn't suggest the name that first came to mind "peasant". I thought you cound give it a move, attack, defend, and cost of 1.

Then send swarms of them to get in the way of the enemy.

	30-07-2002 05:33									#7
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If you use Firaxis' simplistic basic values a lot of units have limitations. If you use a more developed and sensible mod Men-at-Arms, or the Landsknecht (for Germans), could be useful.

Same with Shock Troops - offensive infantry using new tactics. They first occured in 1917 at Caporetto, and were made obsolescent by tanks. But for a brief period they were very effective, and almost won WW I for the Germans in 1918.

	30-07-2002 05:53									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Caliban How about "useless unit nobody will ever build"...

Perhaps... but it could be the swordsman upgrade unit requiring only iron (which would be nice). Could do with a 5 attack or so though, unless it's really cheap. But then it would need to come later than longbowmen else they would be completely useless...

I'm most interested in the new city improvements. Stock Exchange will be one, but I'm hoping to see a return of the civ2 superhighways improvement or something similar and some other improvements to 'fill out' the industrial and modern age. Also hoping to see the medieval and modern tech tree added too.

	30-07-2002 09:32									#9
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I think the Mongol UU replaces this new unit. As you can see the stats for the Keshik are 4.2.2, and if the stats for this unit are 4.2.1, then it makes sense for the Keshik to be one of these dudes on a horse.

I'd actually like to see this unit have different stats than a 4.2.1. Personally, I'm thinking 5.3.1. It would be an upgrade for the swordsman. That way, neither the Romans, nor the Persians would really lose much from an upgrade. As it stands, Persia would never care to upgrade, and Roman Legionaries would lose a defense point. Plus, we already have the cheap Longbowmen that are practically 4.2.1, even though they are actually 4.1.1. I would like this unit to be a slower, but stronger attacking version of the knight.

	30-07-2002 10:29									#10
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The Musketman should beat the Medieval Infantry, both defending and attacking. Thus, the Musketman's stats should be raised.

	30-07-2002 13:52									#11
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Hmm...maybe something to replace that damn swordsman.

I hate that tin hat bloke sticking around on the menu

	30-07-2002 16:39									#12
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I can only applaud the fact that they are beefing up the units list, but I doubt that they can add many new unique units, without introducing more unique capabilities.

As for a name for the little bugger, how about Cannon Fodder.

	30-07-2002 18:05									#13
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Just so ong as it gets rid of that bloody swordsman. He sticks around way to long in the build list

	31-07-2002 21:28									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Deathwalker Just so ong as it gets rid of that bloody swordsman. He sticks around way to long in the build list

Yep! Maybe you should be given the option to upgrade swordsmen to riflemen in industrial age...

	31-07-2002 21:57									#15
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Why don't you make the swordsman upgrade in the editor? That's what I did.

	01-08-2002 01:49									#16
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Because what the hell can he upgrade to?

	01-08-2002 03:27									#17
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I made the swordsman upgrade to Marines, which worked fairly well.

	01-08-2002 07:38									#18
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You have to make an offensive unit upgrade to another offensive unit.

Like Ixnay said: Swordsman to Marine. Works for me too.

I would like to see something in-between like everybody else.
A man-at-arms or longswordsman would be nice. Just something different.

	01-08-2002 11:32									#19
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quote: Originally posted by ixnay37 I made the swordsman upgrade to Marines, which worked fairly well.

Sword->M16
Armoured tin hat bloke->amphibious attacker

That doesn't make sense!

Still, its way better than what I did. The AI piles up a heap of swordman and the marine is an attacker but not a great one like a tank. I allowed upgrading them to cavalry and that seroiusly backfired... Returned to default after that.

Not an issue now - this new unit seems to be true. The all round footsoldier will make battles in the middle ages a whole lot more 'medieval'

	01-08-2002 21:45									#20
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quote: Originally posted by NeoStar Because what the hell can he upgrade to?

I just have them upgrade to Musketman/Musketeers. Historically that's what happened, the infamous Musketeers used both swords and gunpowder.

	01-08-2002 22:41									#21
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My solution is to have an infantry unit called a Fusilier, appering with Military Tradition.

In the end of the 17th century, flintlocks, lead bullets, cartridges and bayonets made the musket the first all-round infantry weapon. Soldiers carrying such muskets, mostly called "fusiliers" replaced the earlier infantry units.

Units

Offensive unit with defensive bombardment
Archer - Longbowman - Musketeer - Fusilier

Offensive
Warrior - Swordsman - Man-at-Arms - Fusilier

Defensive
Spearman - Pikeman - Fusilier

The Fusilier then upgrades into the Rifleman.

	01-08-2002 23:10									#22
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Where did you get the art for the Fusilier, and is it good quality art that looks like it belongs in the game?

	02-08-2002 00:22									#23
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I haven't got any separate art yet. One could use the French Musketeer, if the French get a better unit.

I thought of giving the French Foreign Legionnaires (sp?).

	02-08-2002 00:44									#24
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There is a German Fusilier at civfanatics.

	02-08-2002 00:54									#25
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double post]

Last edited by Optimizer on 02-08-2002 at 23:54

	16-08-2002 04:35									#26
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Any news?

	16-08-2002 05:09									#27
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Maybe call them Macemen.
I think the problem that firaxis has encountered is that it has not allowed enough spacing between unit strenghts. If the Med Inf is 5/2/1, then why build a night? If its 4/2/1 then why build Med Inf (unless you dont have horses)
Modern Armor is only 24 times stronger then a warrior. If there had been a steeper curve for unit strengths, then you would be able to 'fit' more units in between.
Ex. warrior 1.1.1
Horsemen 3.1.2
Swordsmen 3.2.1
Archer 2.1.1
Knight 5.4.2
Longbowmen 5.1.1
Medieval Infantry 6.3.1
Pikemen 1.5.1
Musketmen 3.6.1
Cavalry 10.5.3
Riflemen 8.10.1
Infantry 14.18.1
Paratrooper 16.22.1
Marines 22.16.1
Tank 26.20.2
Mech Inf 18 30 2
Modern Armor 36.26.3

	17-08-2002 17:50									#28
	Increase the size of your Attachments

That's right - in Civ 1 the generation gaps between units were great. In Civ 2 they solved it by using hit points. Civ 3 lacks decisive strength gaps between units.

Anyway, would the Medieval Infantry do any good? It seems to be just a little better than Swordsmen.

	17-08-2002 19:18									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Maybe call them Macemen. I think the problem that firaxis has encountered is that it has not allowed enough spacing between unit strenghts. If the Med Inf is 5/2/1, then why build a night? If its 4/2/1 then why build Med Inf (unless you dont have horses)

Not really. If Med Inf. has 5/2/1 vs. Knights at 4/3/2, then the Knights still have the advantage of more mobility (retreat plus faster movement) and higher defense. Actually, a 5/2/1 would be quite well balanced against a 4/3/2 unit--do you go for the extra bit of attack power, or the extra mobility and defense?

	18-08-2002 19:21									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

There is room for a couple more infantry units in the different era's .

It would be intresting to see a second UU also , this way the Franch could keep their Musketeers and get the Foreign Legion also .