30-07-2002 03:44									#1
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After reading Ubers thread about the viability of cheap war chariots something dawned on me. We have alot of money and are soon to be connected to Iron. Also there appear to be 2 camps in the game those who want to develop what we have and those who want to attck the French.

However the fact that we are soon to be connected to iron puts us in the ideal position to build a S*** load of Warriors and then upgrade them all to swordsmen once we have the iron.

It's only 10 sheilds to build a warrior whereas swords/horsemen are 30 thereofer we could build 12 warriors in the time it takes us to build 4 swords/horsemen and as we have about 500 gp we could then upgrade them all once the iron comes.

By it's self Poly could build 10 warriors in 20 turns. But overall the time to build 12 warriors would be minimal and would allow us to develope our land and build culture.

IIRC Warriors to swords are about 40gp each and it would take us about 7 roads through jungle to connect the iron.

Easily a good balance between attack and developement.

	30-07-2002 03:54									#2
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I'm almost ashamed I didn't think of that...
And spending most of our gold on this should pay off if we can manage to take France. Actually, this plan sounds almost TOO easy...

	30-07-2002 03:58									#3
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Sounds like a good plan to me.

	30-07-2002 03:59									#4
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40 gold is a lot though.

just say the iron is connected in 20 turns, and Apolyton makes 10 warriors.

thats 400 gold we'd need.

sure we have it, but we'd have to see what we spend our money on.

	30-07-2002 04:15									#5
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I like it OPD. In the meantime I don't think we have any tech priorities, so we could build our gold up quite nicely for the event. Furthermore, once we have France, we could turn back to the US if we so desired (20 turns should be up by then).

That 400 gold could easily pay for itself, Uber. What else are we doing with the money?

This could well be the way around this little dispute about our next dispute.

	30-07-2002 04:23									#6
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IMNSHO, this rocks. So what that it costs money! What is money there for, except to be spent? This is a great idea.

	30-07-2002 04:30									#7
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Last I checked we were gaining 13 gpt. Why? Because we buy tech. As long as we don't mind getting a little behind because of a dip in funds, we'll do great.

However if that's 20 turns to get connect, that's 260 gold more we'll have by then. That amount will go up and down because of city improvements and population increase.... eh more down than up, but still!

Remember we do have the option of buying polytheism, and although I can't remember the price, I think it was roughly all our gold, plus some gpt.

Do not forget that whatever gold france has, we will sue for if our attack is successful. We might try suing for GPT as well.

	30-07-2002 04:38									#8
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If we manage the empire correctly (i.e, make tthe citizen in Gaia work, rather than entertain herself), we achieve 17 gpt this turn. Once Gaia is connected to the core cities, we'll get at least 2 more gpt because of entertainment's slider reduction.
We can also expect a slightly lower corruption in our new cities, once this is done.
I support the plan, because it will give us swarms of swordsmen as soon as we connect iron, which will be less than 20 turns if we allocate our resources well. For example, we can buy an industrious worker from the Americans for 28 gold, right now.

	30-07-2002 04:41									#9
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For some reason, it can never get into my head that I can upgrade units without a wonder in Civ III (too used to Civ II).

I say go with it. It would give us a big advantage. 10 swordsmen, backed with however many experienced archers we have? With that, we might have a shot at total conquest of the French (or at least, knocking them over the Rift)!

Plus, it saves us some shields. Swordsmen cost 30 shields, warriors only 10. We can have larger forces in a shorter amount of time (need money, and lots of it, though).

Is it too early for us to start suggesting names for the conquered French cities?

	30-07-2002 04:42									#10
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We don't want to connect our Iron too soon. We need time to build all of the Warriors.

	30-07-2002 04:45									#11
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker We don't want to connect our Iron too soon. We need time to build all of the Warriors.

We can still build Warriors after connecting to the Iron, and we're already working to connect our cities anyway.

I'm in full support of this. Maybe you should put it to a poll, to see what the people think?

	30-07-2002 04:49									#12
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No, once you can build Swordsmen, you can no longer build Warriors.

	30-07-2002 04:51									#13
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I believe we should heavily consider this. I really like the good points. The only concerns I have (as Minister of Science) is that we might not be able to buy techs as well. If all of France can be conquered, it would more than make up for the temporary drop in tech aquiring.

	30-07-2002 05:23									#14
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My only concern is that Swordsmen are a deaded. If we built horses, we would have a standing army through Military Tradition.

	30-07-2002 05:28									#15
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Well, we'll probably lose many of them in a war with France what remains of America. The fact their a dead end won't matter much.

	30-07-2002 05:41									#16
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This is a great idea!

	30-07-2002 05:44									#17
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I think this is a great idea also.

Btw, how does an official poll get started?

	30-07-2002 05:55									#18
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Solar :
To start an official poll, it needs a prepoll debate (exactly what we are doing here). Then, you can post a poll about it, but :
- the poll shouldn't be oriented in any way : the question and possible answers are yes or no (or you do a "grouping" poll, but I don't see the purpose here.
- the first post presents clearly the issue, and gives a link t the debate thread. The first post must be neutral as well.
- the fficial expiration date must be set in 3 days at least. But officials can get information from this poll before it's officially done.
If you follow these simple rules, your poll deserves to be official, and will guide the policy of Apolytonia.

	30-07-2002 06:44									#19
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interesting idea! I know the time savings is a great boon and makes this worthwhile doing if we're hoping to rush a powerful army, but if we end up not going to war, would the gold:shields ratio still be favourable? if so, it's probably a good bet to do anyways, other than the loss of the experience.

btw, i know elites->veteran, but if they're only veteran, do they also drop to regular? if not, then we're fine.

	30-07-2002 07:05									#20
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Captain :
A veteran unit keeps its veteran status when upgraded.

	30-07-2002 07:45									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Captain : A veteran unit keeps its veteran status when upgraded.

Really? I thought a veteran became a regular when upgraded.

	30-07-2002 08:04									#22
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We did this at the begaining of the Domino Wars. We had Shailonegha building Warriors, and upgraded them to Immortals at Pherris or PDX (I forget which). Anyway we were building 1 warrior every two turns, and we had JUST enough income to upgrade 1 warrior ever two turns THAT was perfect.

	30-07-2002 08:41									#23
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I like the idea. I say we put it to poll -- even if we have one bigger city just pump out warriors, we should be able to time it so that the endeavor is profitable. If anyone has a save game and a calculator, they could probably figure out how many turns you'd need to build a good number of warriors and also accumulate enough gold to get a good head start. Either way, we could always build extra warriors and not upgrade them unless the need arises or until we have the funds -- use them as insurance, should extra military ever be needed.

Just my ten cents...

-- adaMada

	30-07-2002 09:26									#24
	Got spare money?

IMO, ten swordsmen is overkill. Big time. With our current 5 archers, we could produce 5 swordsmen, and that would give us 10 attack units. That is all we will need. The money we save could go to science, or embassies( ) and we could also build some horsemen, and thus have units that we can keep for a long time, through upgrading. The plan that Sir Ralph put worth would be easily achievable with only 5 swordsmen and 5 archers.

	30-07-2002 11:05									#25
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If this works (and it's a helluva lot better odds than all the other Archer/Horsemen/War Chariot plans to date), OPD - you will be a war hero!

(Translation: This had BETTER work....)

	30-07-2002 12:23									#26
	Put an end to popups!

Who wants to set up the official poll then ?

	30-07-2002 12:27									#27
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Many people do this upgrade thing. Warriors to swordsmen, and chariots to horsemen or knights. It works well. But I don't think we should wait so long. Time matters quite much. We can hit the French hard if we do it now. In 30-40 turns it can (and probably will) be too late.

	30-07-2002 12:29									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Who wants to set up the official poll then ?

The SMC is the only one to make this official. And IIRC ha already has a poll about it.

	30-07-2002 16:05									#29
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Actually, anyone can post an official poll. Remember the polling debate back right when the game started, and the resulting poll?

Anyway, this is now Plan Gold.

	30-07-2002 19:09									#30
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Sounds prommising. But come up with some clear objectives prior to committing to this.......

Plus, we can still work on internal stuff in the intermittent time......