30-07-2002 19:55									#1
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I just visited a German civilization site and read through an amazing thread of a poster there, who played (and won!) a game on Emperor (standard, 8 civs) with the self-restriction, that he was not allowed to build any military unit, only settlers, workers and scouts (he played as Iroquois).

He played with 5 preselected, most peaceful civs and 2 random. Of course, Germany was among them. The player was able to manage peace till the late game and was then attacked by Bismarck. He lost 2 cities (without any defense), one of which flipped back culturally. The aggression was stopped by signing alliances.

The player won the game diplomatically. It must have been an amazing experience. Since the thread is completely in German, I won't post a link, though.

Has anyone of you played a similar game with the same restriction?

Theseus, what about adding such a challenge in the AU under the topic "Diplomacy", played with India?

	30-07-2002 19:58									#2
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That sounds like an awesome game and would be a really interesting addition to the AU roster.

You probably should post a link Sir Ralph, there are certain to be a few German-speakers on these boards and they might want to check it out. It'd be useless for me, though.

	30-07-2002 20:04									#3
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Ok, here it is.

	30-07-2002 20:08									#4
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Not a SINGLE military unit??? Tell me he at least shut off the barbarians. Even then, that's really impressive. I'd be up for such a challenge, and India would be a great choice (France would be too) for an AU game.

I can't imagine having the willpower to watch an enemy stack approach one of your cities and NOT punch out a few units to defend it.

-Arrian

	30-07-2002 20:24									#5
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Settings are: emperor, standard, 8 civs, archipelago 70%, normal, cool, 3 bill years. Nothing about barbarians, but he mentioned them a few times, so they were probably low, but not completely off. Ah yes, another thing he mentioned is, that he disbanded warriors from huts immediately with shift-D.

The game start can be downloaded here, although we probably would set up our own.

This pic he posted about the # of units during the war he "fought" :

Attachment: overview.jpeg
This has been downloaded 251 time(s).

	30-07-2002 20:42									#6
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Wow, the more I think about this the more I appreciate how hard it must have been. Willpower aside, even. No military police units in the beginning... wow. Then again, it really does focus you on REX, I'd bet, along with seeking and hooking up luxuries. For that reason, I almost wanna say France would be the best for this - Industrious to fuel that rapid expansion/luxury hookup, not to mention getting solid production centers up quickly. Commercial will help with early corruption woes - I honestly think I saw a tangible difference in the game I just finished as Rome - and kick in some extra cash along the way. Plus, the whole concept kinda fits the French

I'd say emperor, standard, pangea, 70%, wet, cool, 3 billion, barbs to "sedimentary." AI opponents: India, Iroquois, China, Greece, America, Germany, Zululand.

-Arrian

Edit: Oh, dear, what have I done? "Sedimentary" seems to have stuck. *sigh*

Last edited by Arrian on 31-07-2002 at 21:26

	30-07-2002 20:54									#7
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I thought a bit about it. France and India seem to be very hard, because they have no scouts. What shall we explore with, and open huts? Workers? That's damn dangerous.

Although it would be a good challenge for India or France, I think the civ should rather be expansionistic, as the German player has chosen.

	30-07-2002 20:57									#8
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WOW!!

But... no Armies??

Just kidding... I feel like Arrian did, the sheer willpower NOT to smack around Bismarck is hard to imagine.

We shall definitely do this in AU.

Arrian, you askin' for trouble by playing pangaea? I agree that if it's wet, gotta be Industrious. France would work well...

For both India and France, what would trigger the GA? Looks like we're all gonna have to get awfully good at pre-building GWs.

	30-07-2002 20:58									#9
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I dunno about that. As for huts... well, a non-expansionist tribe w/o any units should simply not open them. Exploring is more problematic, I'll grant you. That's an issue.

How about the Americans?

-Arrian

	30-07-2002 20:59									#10
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The Americans as peacenicks?

I like the idea.

	30-07-2002 21:03									#11
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Ah, crosspost w/Theseus.

I was thinking pangea so as not to have to worry about sailing the high seas in units we aren't allowed to build.

India is comm/rel and France is comm/ind. Therefore, off the top of my head:

India:
Colossus/Lighthouse
Colossus/Smith
Sistine/Smith
Bach/Smith

France:

Lighthouse/HG
Lighthouse/GW(?)
HG/Smith
GW(?)/Smith

America (Exp/Ind)

Colossus/HG
Colossus/GW(?)
Lighthouse/HG
Lighthouse/GW(?)

-Arrian

	30-07-2002 21:04									#12
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Sir Ralph
The Americans as peacenicks?

	30-07-2002 21:04									#13
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Answer my own question:

France:
* Commercial: Colossus, Lighthouse, Magellan, Smith, Hoover, Manhattan Project
* Industrious: Pyramids, Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, UN

India:
* Commercial: Colossus, Lighthouse, Magellan, Smith, Hoover, Manhattan Project
* Religious: Pyramids, Colossus, Oracle, Sistine, Bach

I'm not sure if SW's work too, but if they do, Heroic Epic and the FP would also work (uhhh, limited choice there!!).

	30-07-2002 21:08									#14
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SW's shouldn't work.

I'm kinda liking the idea of playing the Americans (would be the first time for me). Opponents would then be France, India, China, Iroquois, Greece, Germany, Zululand. Or are two mean, nasty, demanding men too much?

-Arrian

	30-07-2002 21:15									#15
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Wow! This peaceful AU course might be the best one for testing the effect of AI build preferences!

The human interference (read attack) will be minimal, so each AI will follow the consequences of its own build strategy. We could make two saves for the same map and starting locations. One with standard AI settings and one with modified ones. What do you think?

	30-07-2002 21:18									#16
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I think that is a very good idea alexman. You're right that this would be the best to test the build prefs because the human wouldn't be messing with the AI civs too much.

	30-07-2002 21:34									#17
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Oooh, I agree. Great idea, alexman. We could have a "trade/wealth/science" block, a "happiness/trade/wealth" block, and a "production/happiness/trade block. Or something like that. 2 AI's per category = 6 AIs. Leave the Germans or Zulu alone. And see how each "block" performs.

-Arrian

	30-07-2002 21:55									#18
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The human player approach to automated playtesting... very cool.

alexman, I posted on player1's mod thread to get some input on putting his mod together with the build preferences concept.

	30-07-2002 22:03									#19
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I volunteer to create the savegames for this.

Just let me know if you want to use player 1's mod, what features of that mod you don't want included, and what map settings and civs you would like for the game.

	30-07-2002 22:21									#20
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I don't know what was happening before... I cross-posted a bunch and never even saw it. Now I get it... Americans as peacenicks is great!

So, GA triggers:
* Industrious: Pyramids, Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, UN
* Expansionist: Colossus, Lighthouse, Copernicus, Magellan, SETI

I'd probably shoot for Colossus and Hanging Gardens.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I'd say emperor, standard, pangea, 70%, wet, cool, 3 billion, barbs to "sedimentary."

I agree, except for pangaea... I'd suggest continents, 60% water, and 7 total civs. This will give a little breathing room (which, btw, Soren said would help the emergence of killers), and make map trading a MUST.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Opponents would then be France, India, China, Iroquois, Greece, Germany, Zululand.

Lemme think about this in the context of your "block" idea.

	30-07-2002 22:56									#21
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OK, the way I look at it, AI civ characteristics break up into four main pieces: cultural (incl. of happiness, scientific, and culture preferences), monetary (wealth and trade), military, and growth. Of those, I think we are feeling our way towards the idea that killer AI civs will really come from a core focus on either cultural or monetary.

So, starting with Arrian's most recent suggestion for AI opponents, but knocking it down to only six, I would suggest getting rid of Zulu and Greece, and adding Russia.

Thus:
France - culture / money
India - culture / money
Iroquois - culture / growth
Germany - culture / military
China - money / military
Russia - money / growth

This sorta gives us three blocks:
1) both culture and money
2) culture with something else
3) money with something else

It's pretty hard to characterize this way, as there is spillover (for instance, Russia also has a science preference, which is cultural).

Anyway, I think that's a good list.

	30-07-2002 23:05									#22
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Question: Are we modding the rules for this game (units, etc), or are we just changing AI build preferences?

My feeling is to change only the build preferences so we don't introduce too many extra variables in the experiment.

	30-07-2002 23:13									#23
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Good point, although I don;t think player1's changes are enough to make much of a difference.

I'm happy to go either way.

	30-07-2002 23:25									#24
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I concur - the less changes, the better.

Theseus, using the (revised) build preferences Alexman posted in the AI Power thread, all civs would have "production" flagged. Ok, that leaves three other preferences each. I disagree with the addition of Russia and dropping Egypt. Drop Greece, keep Egypt (how many expansionist civs do you want in this thing?)

India: Happy, Wealth, Trade
France: Happy, Trade, Culture
the rich, cultured civs

Egypt: Growth, Wealth, Happy
Iroquois: Growth, Happy, Explore
The "Growth" civs

China: Trade, Culture, Defensive units
Germany: Offensive units, Science, Trade
The militaristic trader civs - one "builder" one "warmonger"

	30-07-2002 23:32									#25
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It would be funny if Germany and China ended up alone together... a militarist set to build lots of offense vs. another set to build defense. Heh.

It would be nice to be on the same landmass as the Iroquois, so we will at least get the diplo bonus (cultural group). Correct me if I'm wrong, but you still get that little extra edge in AI attitude even if "culturally linked starting locations" is off.

-Arrian

	30-07-2002 23:32									#26
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OK, that's fine. But I didn't drop Egypt.... it was never on the list!

	30-07-2002 23:38									#27
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To.... many.... threads.... crossposts.... new ideas.... ahhhh!

My bad. I should have said: drop Greece, drop Zululand, add Egypt (from my original list).

-Arrian

	30-07-2002 23:42									#28
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It's cool...

I really like what we are ending up with.

Go alexman!!!

	30-07-2002 23:48									#29
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The more I think about it, the more daunting it seems, though. Particularly on Emperor, because only your 1st citizen will be "born" content. W/O units... OUCH. We will probably be running 30% luxuries or even more for a good chunk of the ancient age.

Gotta get those luxuries at all costs. Can't capture them later - gotta get 'em now! I haven't played like that in a looooooong time.

Hmm, I see granaries right off the bat in this one (something I've never done). Scouts find luxuries, workers build roads in that direction, settlers race the AI's. On Emperor... with happiness issues the whole way. This is gonna be hard. Pray to whatever you believe in that we don't end up next to Bismarck.

-Arrian

	31-07-2002 00:06									#30
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Here's the other huge issue:

Golden Age. The Industrious wonders:

Pyramids
Great Wall
Hanging Gardens
Hoover(right?)
UN

The Pyramids on Emperor? Maybe, but it would most likely kill your expansion. Great Wall? The worst wonder in the game - a military wonder in a game where we can't build units? Hanging Gardens - the best shot, I think, plus it provides happiness, but the AI likes this one too. After that, boys and girls, it's a long way to Hoover or the UN.

So unless you think you can pull this off w/o a golden age until Hoover, you must plan on building the Pyramids, GW or HG. The expansionist wonders are better spaced out (I will definitely take a shot at the Colossus if possible).

The main problem with the Pyramids/GW/HG dilemna is that building any of them almost assuredly knocks out the Great Library (especially the Pyramids and HG). The GL would be enormously helpful, but is it worth a golden age? Decisions, decisions...

-Arrian