31-07-2002 07:01									#1
	Machiavelli Institute: Ubergorsk and Iron Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I realize a bewildering variety of schemes and proposals are flying around, in the wake of routing the Americans. After looking over the map (circa 875 bc), I have become convinced we need to make the development of Ubergorsk and the vicinity a high priority.
Several factors converge to make this lonely little outpost in the Jungle a critical strategic point on the map. First, it abuts iron. Right now that iron represents our only source of this vital resource. With luck, we will gain access to alternative supplies soon (in a war with France). But given the constant possibility of suddenly losing any given source to depletion, Uber-iron will remain critical to our military capacity. And very possibly a valuable trading commodity.
Of course, both the Persians and the Germans feel the same way. Both are encroaching on this part of the map -- and we all know both are aggressive and dangerous rivals.
Both Germany and Persia have built other cities near other sources of iron -- Germany has several alternative veins within striking distance, Persia only one. Nevertheless, they will try to lock down this source too. Persia in particular depends on iron, of course, to supply its immortals. If we could hold this iron, and sabotage Persia's other source, we could cripple their military capacity.
The other critical resource located in this general region is dyes -- not in the immediate vicinity, but close enough to draw our rivals into this part of the jungle. If we want to secure a monoply, we will eventually need to extend territorial control over this general region, and Ubergorsk will have to be a major staging area for that effort.
It is also strategically located at what looks to be a border forming with Persia, which in all likelihood will be a major, powerful player in this game. If we ever face Persia in war, Ubergorsk will be on the front line.

Already we are pressed closely here, by Munich to the north and Sidon to the east. We need to counter these encroachments, by building up Ubergorsk's population and culture, as well as its defensive capability, IMO. We need to road to it asap, and begin clearing nearby jungle -- an effort worth at least 3 workers, IMO.
I know tantalizing resources lie in other directions, particularly to the north and west. Probably our next military thrust will extend us in that direction; very possibly the one after that, too (a second war with the Americans, perhaps, to take Fragrance Valley).
But we MUST NOT forget the jungles to the east. The terrain is dense and inhospitable, but the long-term strategic significance makes it absolutely necessary we start to dig in here -- and our industriousness should give us a critical edge, too. This is a major advantage, and we need to exploit it aggressively, not take it for granted.

Agree? Disagree? We should discuss this.

	31-07-2002 07:04									#2
	Support Apolyton

agree. we should build 2-5 more cities before the french campaign...

	31-07-2002 07:52									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Specifically, we should build cities surrounding Munich. Not only does this provide for an alternate path to Ubergorsk (in the event that Munich has a cultural expansion), but it also gives us a chance to culture flip Munich and secure the whole area.

	31-07-2002 12:03									#4
	Tired of ads?

Oncee our two jungle worker stacks join they'll be able to build a new road towards Ubergorsk every turn.

	31-07-2002 18:59									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I wonder if we should focus so much on checking the Germans and Persians, or if we still consider the Aztecs to be the greatest threat on Abananaba Major. Either way, we need that iron (and probably the City 1 site iron) and we need a strong eastern border, so turning Ubergorsk into a huge militaro-culutral camp is definitely a prime idea

	31-07-2002 19:04									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A city south or SW of Munich is in consideration and will probably soon be built. It will be near to useless what concerns production, but it will make sure 2 things:

• The road to the iron goes through our own territory, even if Munich expands culturally (very important, for strategic purposes)
  
• We are able to culture-squeeze Munich.
  

	31-07-2002 19:26									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph A city south or SW of Munich is in consideration and will probably soon be built. It will be near to useless what concerns production, but it will make sure 2 things: The road to the iron goes through our own territory, even if Munich expands culturally (very important, for strategic purposes) We are able to culture-squeeze Munich.

Sounds like a good strategy.

	31-07-2002 19:46									#8
	Got spare money?

I like the idea about building a city next to Munich in order to provide for an land-route towards Uber, and if we build another city at the base of the mountains next to German territory. We will lock Munich inside our cultural sphere. There is also some territory to the north of Del Monte, old Washington, that is fertile and therefore prime spots to build cities on. Also they would lock the border against the Greeks, allowing them no more expansion. I think building the cities there, which will become operating fast, building settlers and such stuff. This land is also probably much more valued by the AI, making it more reasonable for us to go after it. first.

	31-07-2002 20:34									#9
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Yes, a city south of Munich would be ideal for hindering Bismark. As a plus, it is on the opposite side of our borders from the French, and thus not likely to be attacked.

	31-07-2002 20:48									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

As well as blocking Bismarck, we shgould think of blocking either Abe's access to iron, Alex's access to a second iron deposit, and our ability to gain extra iroon. Therre is a great site for a city between Chicago and Boston, next to iron, on floodplain for quick growth, though it may soon be taken by the A.I.

	31-07-2002 23:39									#11
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Yeah, the iron between America looks very nice.

	01-08-2002 00:12									#12
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The key to developing this strategy, I believe, will be hacking out jungle and growing cities in this region faster than the Germans or Persians. We should be able to maximize our industriousness-advantage here, and take cities our AI rivals begin to grow for us. I would support early temple construction at these sites, and allocate a significant proportion of our workforce here.

	01-08-2002 00:27									#13
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After the six workers (three slaves, three of ours) finish the road they can quickly de-jungle the surrounding land.

	02-08-2002 19:40									#14
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Update, dateline 750 bc:
1) Given the strategic importance of this outpost (which seems generally recognized), and the threat of encroachment by Persia from Sidon, I urge that we move the warrior now within the city onto the mountain square southest. This will keep it nearby, to support the spearman garrison, but allow us to scout Sidon. We want to be able to see developments there: either military buildup, or worker activity (road-building, de-jungling, etc). We are in an urgent race here, and we need to get some intelligence on what Persia is doing here.

2.) Perhaps we should detach one veteran archer from the stack at Timeline and send it to Ubergorsk, to add some offensive capability to the garrison. I realize we need to build up as much military mass as possible on the western front, to prepare for Case Pink. Nevertheless, given the great distance seperating the mass of our army from Ubergorsk, we need ready-made offensive capability, both to discourage Persian aggression and, if it comes, to meet immortals (which, as we all know, are fearsome on the offensive, but weak defensively).