31-07-2002 18:59									#1
	Unoffical Poll: turnchat times that suit YOU! (Last try) Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

(I'll try to get it right this time.)

*sigh* (We really do need a smiley for that.) Alrighty then.

It seems that I am not the only one who thinks turnchat times could be changed to suit everyone a little better. The norm seems to have been to have turnchats on Sunday 1600EST/2100GMT and Wednesday at the same time. We have more recently had some less standard times/days, including some chats being held on consecutive days! I think it is time we sorted out two or at most three times per week that suit as many people here as possible.

This poll gives you the option to select as many of the above timeslots as you are available for. If the time doesn't suit you at all - don't click on it. If you think you could live with the time - by all means click on that time.

The choices above are for a one hour period starting from the time for that option. For example, the option 2100GMT(1600EST) counts for a turnchat from this time until 2159GMT(1659 EST). You should consider this poll as covering times for the 24 hour periods of Sunday 0000GMT(Saturday 1900EST) until Sunday 2359GMT(Sunday 1859EST) and Wednesday 0000 GMT (Tuesday 1900EST) until Wednesday 2359GMT (Wednesday 1859EST).

I may do a poll on different days later on, dependent on how this one goes. This first poll os for 5 days.

Hopefully we should find there are some periods of time where most of those voting here can attend, and we can petition Ninot for an official poll and a change to times that are better for all, and standard.

Remember, if you are keen to participate and there is a time you could turn up for, but prefer not to, click on that time as possible for you. This is only an UNOFFICIAL poll; you can always vote against the less preferable times later if there is the option. This poll is intended only to find out how possible it is to have times where all who are interested can turn up.

I hope this doesn't confuse too many people.

Last edited by MrWhereItsAt on 31-07-2002 at 19:09

	31-07-2002 19:16									#2
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Did you get this one right, finally?

	31-07-2002 19:17									#3
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Yep

It's 2am - I think I deserve a chance or, er, three.

	31-07-2002 19:18									#4
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We should MWIA elect as the Apolytonian Poll Master . Really, he got it done with only 3 tries. Trip needed more for some polls in the last election .

EDIT (to stay on topic): The options arent well choosen though. You should have used 2 hour steps, but have Sundays and Wednesdays separated. While on Sundays, I practically have time the whole day, at Wednesdays I'm at work.

	31-07-2002 19:28									#5
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Right now these two seem to be best for 66% of the voters:
0300 GMT (2200 EST)
0400 GMT (2300 EST)

During school these would be best for me.

	31-07-2002 19:30									#6
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Well, then vote for whichever times suit you BOTH days (ie the times that suit you on Wednesday probably suit you on Sunday too). Here your Sunday = my Monday and Wednesday = Thursday, and these two days are effectively identical to me. It is often hard to contemplate how the rest of the world can cope with eternally living in the past

Sorry for all the muck-ups, but hopefully with the feedback here we can get an organised poll running sometime. I expect this is one indirect game related issue ppl won't mind seeing on the forum.

	31-07-2002 20:29									#7
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*note*

All GMT should really be BST or british summer time as thats what were on at the moment.

To be accurate all GMT above should be -1 hour or be put in BST.

Although British people usually understand GMT to mean the time in Britain other people trying to work out the time in their country may use the GMT to actually mean GMT.

At a recent turn chat I can remember some one saying something about being a hour late because of confusion over this.

	31-07-2002 20:34									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Right now these two seem to be best for 66% of the voters: 0300 GMT (2200 EST) 0400 GMT (2300 EST) During school these would be best for me.

If the hour were to stay at 16:00 EST... i wont be running for a second term in office

if it were to change to one of the above. I will run again, probably.

For the school year, i dont think 16:00 EST will work at all. But I cant go to an earlier time in any scenario, cuz that would only alienate more NA users.

Yeah, i know alienating Euro users is bad too.. thats why we play at 16:00EST 21:00 GMT right now. But one of the groups is gonna have to give some major ground come opening day at school.

	31-07-2002 20:51									#9
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4 pm EST will be impossible for me during weekdays (once school starts) but if more people can make it then I'd have no prob.

	31-07-2002 20:59									#10
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quote: Originally posted by OPD *note* All GMT should really be BST or british summer time as thats what were on at the moment. To be accurate all GMT above should be -1 hour or be put in BST. Although British people usually understand GMT to mean the time in Britain other people trying to work out the time in their country may use the GMT to actually mean GMT. At a recent turn chat I can remember some one saying something about being a hour late because of confusion over this.

Argh. Thanks OPD. Does this mean that the time you made that post was 15:29 actual GMT? And so GMT isn't the actual time in Greenwich, but is some kind of mean as the name suggests?

Apologies again for any confusion created - I use GMT because here in NZ we are supposed to be GMT +12, but for a while we seem to have been GMT +11 and I have no idea when your daylight saving times change over. EST is somewhere in the middle and it takes me a precious few seconds longer to think about the conversion.

	31-07-2002 22:52									#11
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I may be stating the obvious, but personally, I feel the availability of the President should be weighted more heavily as he is the one we elected to play the game for us. Also, the ability of ministers to participate is more important than the average citizen.

Otherwise, good poll. Always good to see how we can fit as many other citizens as we can.

	01-08-2002 00:34									#12
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I'm starting to get busier and busier earlier than I thought. Eventually the only good time for me will be 0700 GMT, so I don't think I'll vote and pollute the count since my vote doesn't really matter anyways and that time will never win.

	01-08-2002 01:19									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Captain I feel the availability of the President should be weighted more heavily as he is the one we elected to play the game for us. Also, the ability of ministers to participate is more important than the average citizen.

Ah yes, yet another excellent point, Captain.

Hopefully Ministers are keeping up with all the threads, as most diligent citizens are as well. In that case, I ask that the Ministers post their available times here also - there is a certain precedence in choosing a time best for most Ministers, if not all. Therfore this info will come in useful in considering any official poll or change to the current timechats.

	01-08-2002 01:23									#14
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as im making such a stink in the other thread, about the weeks notice, ill just state my mind here too

this is a very usefull thread to determine when turnchats should be scheduled

as opposed to the other one which is trying to dictate how we schedule the turnchats.

	01-08-2002 01:39									#15
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Until Ocotber, I'm available between 19:00 and 23:30 GMT. No sooner, no later. But don't worry : I won't be a minister next term

	01-08-2002 03:40									#16
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During school, turn chats somewhere between 1600 to 1900 GMT suits best. Now that it's summer vacation, it's harder to say.

	01-08-2002 04:53									#17
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Does the Pres have any weekend comitments ?

How would 1 or 2 turn chats during the week which are US friendly and 1 turn chat at the week end which is more EU friendly (perhaps 5pm in England and 12pm in US) suit people?

Unless I'm mistaken weekends for the US would be the same as summer holidays?

Also why won't the Minister of economy be a minister next term?

IMO, as much as I'd hate to admit it, maximum US participation is essential.

	01-08-2002 06:09									#18
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quote: Originally posted by OPD How would 1 or 2 turn chats during the week which are US friendly and 1 turn chat at the week end which is more EU friendly (perhaps 5pm in England and 12pm in US) suit people?

The problem, again, is that neither the President nor the Vice-President is outside of NA.

quote: Also why won't the Minister of economy be a minister next term?

He's already been a minister for 2 terms.

quote: IMO, as much as I'd hate to admit it, maximum US participation is essential.

Yep. About 2/3 of the people here are from NA (via a poll). Without them things wouldn't work quite right.

	01-08-2002 06:13									#19
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Trip

The problem, again, is that neither the President nor the Vice-President is outside of NA.

how about a 4pm chant at weekends then? rather than 12pm.

	01-08-2002 12:20									#20
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The time shouldn't be dependent on the President; the President shouldn't run, or any other official, if they can't make most of the turnchats. Otherwise, you could have a President that is on some freaky schedule that would be bad for most of the rest of the citizens and be stuck with it.

The goal should be to have it when the largest number of people can be involved. The current time prevents a large number from actively participating due to work schedules. I know why the time was chosen, but it didn't factor most people into the equation.

A good solution would be to find a couple of different times to have to maximize the number of participants. Which would include a big enough time difference to accomodate non NA/SA citizens in at least one, yet also have at least one that accomodated most NA/SA.

	01-08-2002 12:52									#21
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You hit the nail on the head there kring. If you're not going to be available, then you shouldn't run.

quote: Originally posted by OPD how about a 4pm chant at weekends then? rather than 12pm.

I'm not going to be running for anything anymore, so I couldn't say if that's good for NA people who want positions or not. However, I'm 2 hours behind EST, so it's even earlier here than it is in the east. 10am is harsh for me.

Yes yes Mwia, I know, I know.

	01-08-2002 12:56									#22
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i dont care when they're at. My schedual is so damn random. Ill probably never be able to participate. Oh well, as long as i am loud in the forum, then I feel i am representing myself plenty.

Kman

	01-08-2002 13:23									#23
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I voted 19:00 GMT, 20:00 GMT, 21:00 GMT, 22:00 GMT. But my opinion doesn't matter too, as I won't run for an office again.

	01-08-2002 17:01									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Trip You hit the nail on the head there kring. If you're not going to be available, then you shouldn't run.

There is also the problem of the "chicken and egg" situation. Are the turnchats decided by the officials, or do the officials decide the turnchats. At the moment, i'm betting some people don't run for office because they can't make the turnchat times. But if that is the criteria, the times will never change, and these people will be forever excluded. I think we need a bit more flexibility. I realise that the majority of citizens are fom North America, and therefore have to be the main group, but i also believe weekends should give enough flexibility to cater for the rest of the world.

I make these points as someone who doesn't have time to make the chats whenever they are, so feel free to disregard me!

	02-08-2002 13:17									#25
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And with so many current Ministers wanting to retire after this term, it is imperative those who want to participate, can do so.

Unless we end up changing the turnchats after this poll and others, for the next elections a major part of the candidates' posts will be whether they can turn up to the current time for turnchats or not, and if not, when they can be available for them.

	02-08-2002 14:01									#26
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MWIA. How would you reconcile the Euros with you Oceanauts?

If a compromise there could be found, then maybe the people of the Americas could accomodate for the week end chat.

The week day chat has a very narrow window. After work/school and before an ungodly hour for the 80 percent of the game that are in the Americas. Sorry.

Hey, cheer up. I can't make any of the week day chats either due to work. And I always seem to miss the week end ones as well (I lose track of them).

	02-08-2002 14:19									#27
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Time to part with the current turnchat system. On the long run it is inapplicable anyway. Imagine, we have 50 or more units to move in every turn. The chaos in the chatroom reporting, replaying and discussing all these moves makes me shiver.

And it's time to give power to the president. The ministers shall do their best to make polls and clear decisions, and they shall post detailed instructions in a thread in order to prepare the presidental session. The president shall play to a point, where he needs new instructions, or till something unforeseen happens (like a declaration of war), without a turnchat. We should define a maximal # of turns, for instance 5 or 6, if nothing happens. After this, the president shall post the current save and a detailed report. And the whole process starts again.

This would make it possible for everyone to participate, regardless of the time zone.

If this game turns into a pure American one, with all other nations condemned to be only viewers, I will abandon this game at all.

Last edited by Sir Ralph on 02-08-2002 at 14:49

	02-08-2002 14:27									#28
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That is where it is headed Sir Ralph. At a certain point, possibly long ago, we should leave the President to play the game.

I don't see how the minority that can make turn chats can accurately represent us all. Thus any of those 'insta-polls' are as valid as the one that proclaimed Dewey a winner over Truman.

	02-08-2002 17:02									#29
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I still prefer turnthreads over having a superpowerful prez :
Ministers are here to take care of all micromanagement in their specific field, to avoid any waste. For example, the FAM will visit all foreigners each turn, to see if some deals are workable. The prez, who has also to do the city planning, move the units, do the administrative stuff etc. cannot give so much attention to detail by himself, except if he'ss willing to play an hour per turn.

Many "unexpected" things happen each turn. For example, it was predictable that Currency and construction would be discovered by the AI (thus, the FAM could have given plans in advance). But what was less predictable, is that France and Persia have them, and we can do a specific techwhoring.
It's possible the prez, who has too much to do, wouldn't visit foreigners every turn, and would miss such an occasion.


Edit : NYE, Instapolls are not always valid, because they're rushed and sometimes biased... But when you see an overwhelming majority in an instapoll, it's reasonable to think a majority would exist in the forum (all instapolls I've suggested, and most I've seen won by a landslide IIRC)
I think turnchats are doomed very soon. But I think turnthreads are the best thing to do once turnchats became completely unpracticable : ministers will give all their precise orders, without the Prez having to think of every situation (it will also solve the timezone problem)
I know turnthreads are more boring than turnchats, but no turnchat at all will be more boring, and less efficient.

	02-08-2002 18:38									#30
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Well NYE, I think the one stick in the works from my side of the world is me. Honestly, what other Kiwis/Aussies/SE Asians have you seen complaining openly here?

If there are any other Non-Euros and Non-Americans here, please post and tell us about YOUR needs.

And as far as trying to top MY whining goes, the current time is near a good time. An hour later and I could make the last half, an hour earlier even would be fine (I wouldn't mind getting up at 6:30 here if it meant I could attend a turnchat, in fact this may be GOOD for me ). Two hours later is ideal, but perhaps not as good in Europe. As it is the turnchat is at 8am, just as we all head off to Uni/work.

There seems to be a lot of voters for times ranging from just before the current 2100 BST (is that 2000 GMT now?) to soon after. Great. Any of these times but the current one is better.

And as much as I disliked the turnchat idea at its inception, I have to say that it seems to have had some great effectiveness in getting some involved to a larger degree than might otherwise happen. After reading Spiffor's post, I agree that we should try to find a way to keep turnchats, yet it will soon become necessary for us to let the Prez do some things without so much discussion at the time (I don't of course know whether this still happens in the chats).