02-08-2002 22:35									#31
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Oalfs?

Frankly, the French pair may not have needed any fix to win gold in ice dance. I seem to remember that they skated well.

	02-08-2002 23:05									#32
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Since when has that been a criterion?

	03-08-2002 06:10									#33
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I suggest that everyone here honestly answer the following question. Imagine that the roles are reversed. Namely, the Russian couple performs exactly as the Canadian one, and vice versa, and the gold goes to the Canadians. Then the question is (actually it's a number of interrelated questions):

Would there result a big deal out of it? Would the media and the public be outraged to such an extent? Would the second gold be awarded (to the Russian couple in this case)?

I hope the answer of all reasonable people will be NO.

But if so, what are we really talking about? All your pathetic talk about justice and what is rightful is just ... pathetic.

Justice only for chosen people is injustice. A uniform application of an intrinsic injustice to everyone is more just than justice for the chosen only.

	03-08-2002 06:24									#34
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By the way, do you have an idea why the FBI was so interested in furthering that case? Let me explain you.

That incident was quite embarrassing for America, whether you realize it or not. Indeed, the international community entrusted America with organizing the games. And what happened was a five-day rage of the media and public of the host country that put in danger the very continuation of the games. Now the question is whether such a country can again be entrusted with organizing an event like that. Having this question in the air is rather embarrassing, especially taking into account that in all other respects America is always the ideal candidate.

	03-08-2002 06:26									#35
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Vagabond...

People aren't upset because they're Canadian, it's because one had a flawless performance and one stumbled and then the pair who stumbled won.

And then it came out that a French judge may have been corrupted.

And then it now comes out that this "Russian mob boss" is caught, on tape, bragging about how he fixed the results.

And you try to play your country as the victim of the world's oppressors?

The only thing pathetic here is your complete inability to see what's going on around you.

	03-08-2002 06:27									#36
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond By the way, do you have an idea why the FBI was so interested in furthering that case? Let me explain you. That incident was quite embarrassing for America, whether you realize it or not. Indeed, the international community entrusted America with organizing the games. And what happened was a five-day rage of the media and public of the host country that put in danger the very continuation of the games. Now the question is whether such a country can again be entrusted with organizing an event like that. Having this question in the air is rather embarrassing, especially taking into account that in all other respects America is always the ideal candidate.

So now you're trying to blame this on the Americans somehow.

(Why isn't Russia a global power anymore? It comes as such a surprise to me!)

	03-08-2002 06:54									#37
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Asher, you haven't answered the question I raised in my post: YES or NO?

Type your answer with your left hand while keeping the right one on your heart.

quote: Originally posted by Asher So now you're trying to blame this on the Americans somehow.

I've always been thinking that Americans are much more to blame here than Canadians.

quote: (Why isn't Russia a global power anymore? It comes as such a surprise to me!)

This is irrelevant here. Save your giggle for another occasion.

	03-08-2002 07:06									#38
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Asher, you haven't answered the question I raised in my post: YES or NO?

I would honestly say yes, the world would care.

I did answer your question, I just wasn't as verbose as I needed to be apparently.

People didn't care about their nationalities, people cared because it was obvious to everyone watching (save for the Russians, which is understandable) it was not the right ruling.

From that answer you should have figured out that the answer is "yes", since people don't care about nationalities when they see something like that unless they're the country that was awarded the gold because of the incident.

	03-08-2002 07:12									#39
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The American organizers have absolutely nothing to do with the result. Zero, zip, nada.

That did and does remain in the hands of the IOC and the ISU.

Are you guys from Russia making this up as you go?

To answer your question though... If the situations were reversed I'd be happy to see the Russians given gold. BTW, no one has taken gold away from the Russian skaters either, since they themselves have done no wrong.

	03-08-2002 07:18									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I would honestly say yes, the world would care.

Oh, if you put it this way, I agree with you: the world would care (at least a little bit). There would be some talk in the media, etc. (again, at least a little bit).

But my question was slightly different. And by formulating your answer as you did, you've actually been avoiding the answer. Do you believe that if the roles were reversed it would still result in the second gold awarded? -- this is the question.

	03-08-2002 07:23									#41
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I think you're overblowing how "outraged" everyone is, Vagabond.

When it initially happened the media played it out quite a bit, as they do with every minor story on a slow news day, but it wasn't to the point where there were riots in the streets or anything like that.

I ask you this, though: What does that have to do with anything? Either way an investigation would have taken place, and either way they'd get evidence supporting the claim it was fixed.

	03-08-2002 07:34									#42
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Vagabond, if they had skated equally well, I would not care who got the gold. As it is, it was blatently obvious the russian pair fouled up, and they still got the gold anyway.

	03-08-2002 07:52									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Asher When it initially happened the media played it out quite a bit, as they do with every minor story on a slow news day, but it wasn't to the point where there were riots in the streets or anything like that.

Thanks God there were no riots. Minor story on the news? This "minor" story almost shattered the olympiad.

quote: I ask you this, though: What does that have to do with anything? Either way an investigation would have taken place, and either way they'd get evidence supporting the claim it was fixed.

Either way? Don't you remember that the hysteric lady confessed to hell-knows-what after being subjected to an enormous external pressure?

For the record: it seems you don't want to answer the question. Well, so it be, it's up to you after all.

	03-08-2002 07:54									#44
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Vagabond, if they had skated equally well, I would not care who got the gold. As it is, it was blatently obvious the russian pair fouled up, and they still got the gold anyway.

The point here is not even who skated better, it's deeper. If you want, you may try to answer the question I raised earlier.

	03-08-2002 07:57									#45
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Thanks God there were no riots. Minor story on the news? This "minor" story almost shattered the olympiad.

Only because of the news that the judges cannot be trusted, after it came out there was corruption.

It was a minor story, but the news blew it up into something big because it was a slow news day.

quote: Either way? Don't you remember that the hysteric lady confessed to hell-knows-what after being subjected to an enormous external pressure?

And I suppose the Russian mob boss who confessed to doing it on tape was subjected to enormous external pressure to do so as well?

quote: For the record: it seems you don't want to answer the question. Well, so it be, it's up to you after all.

I answered it twice.
You just want me to say "No". I say "Yes" twice and it's not answering it.

	03-08-2002 08:04									#46
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The American organizers have absolutely nothing to do with the result. Zero, zip, nada. That did and does remain in the hands of the IOC and the ISU.

I meant not the American organizers in particular. They did a great job. I meant the environment that occurred around the event. It's not a fault of the organizers. It's a fault of the host country as a whole.

quote: To answer your question though... If the situations were reversed I'd be happy to see the Russians given gold.

I don't doubt that. Yet my question was a little bit different...

quote: BTW, no one has taken gold away from the Russian skaters either, since they themselves have done no wrong.

Awarding the second gold was an insult to the Russian couple. Besides it naturally devaluated the original gold in their possession.

	03-08-2002 08:09									#47
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Awarding the second gold was an insult to the Russian couple. Besides it naturally devaluated the original gold in their possession.

That's the breaks.

You don't think it was insulting for the other couple to be given silver when they put in a Gold performance? That's even more insulting.

The Russians only have that Russian Mob Boss to blame for their situation. They should be happy they have Gold now and not silver like they should.

	03-08-2002 08:22									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Only because of the news that the judges cannot be trusted, after it came out there was corruption.

It started before that, namely at the very moment the NBC commentators were broadcasting their shock in the air.

quote: It was a minor story, but the news blew it up into something big because it was a slow news day.

So, if it was blown into a big one, it was a big story.

quote: And I suppose the Russian mob boss who confessed to doing it on tape was subjected to enormous external pressure to do so as well?

It's amazing how easily one clings to a doubtful information if it suits one's purposes (I don't mean you personally, Asher).

quote: I answered it twice. You just want me to say "No". I say "Yes" twice and it's not answering it.

You answered twice, but not exactly the question I asked.

	03-08-2002 08:31									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You don't think it was insulting for the other couple to be given silver when they put in a Gold performance? That's even more insulting.

Unfortunately, that happens in sports. (Not that I recognize that the Canadian couple skated better -- it's actually irrrelevant to our present discussion as I see it).

	03-08-2002 09:29									#50
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond It started before that, namely at the very moment the NBC commentators were broadcasting their shock in the air.

So would you be suggesting that because of the NBC commentators, a Russian mob boss was caught on tape admitting to fixing it, and a French judge confessed to being corrupt (even though she wasn't!) because of pressure.

quote: So, if it was blown into a big one, it was a big story.

Not in the eyes of everyone watching it.
News people try to make minor stories big stories on slow news days. That's how it is.

quote: It's amazing how easily one clings to a doubtful information if it suits one's purposes (I don't mean you personally, Asher).

So suddenly a taped recording of a confession is doubtful information.
And what absolute fact do you have discounting it?

	03-08-2002 10:08									#51
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This corruption in figure skating didn't just start in Salt Lake. It's been going on for years and everybody knows it. It's turned figure skating into a farce. I think skating should be banned from the Olympics until the international skating union can get their crap together and figure things out. Switch judges every couple of events. Don't let judges know which competitions they will be judging until the day before. That way it would be harder for them to make deals with other countries to throw votes their way.

There was a Canadian judge who mentioned something about corrupt judges after the previous Olympics. What do you think happened to her? She was banned from juding. Now how is that logical?

	03-08-2002 10:55									#52
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond I suggest that everyone here honestly answer the following question. Imagine that the roles are reversed. Namely, the Russian couple performs exactly as the Canadian one, and vice versa, and the gold goes to the Canadians. Then the question is (actually it's a number of interrelated questions): Would there result a big deal out of it? Would the media and the public be outraged to such an extent? Would the second gold be awarded (to the Russian couple in this case)? I hope the answer of all reasonable people will be NO. But if so, what are we really talking about? All your pathetic talk about justice and what is rightful is just ... pathetic. Justice only for chosen people is injustice. A uniform application of an intrinsic injustice to everyone is more just than justice for the chosen only.

Sorry, I thought I had answered the question, but I misinterpreted it. Had the Canadians been the ones to trip up, and still gotten the gold, I would have said that the Russians were robbed. Had this been followed up with the French judge saying she had been pressured to give the Canadians high marks, the scandal that followed would have been much the same. It might even be worse, because people would start pointing at a France Quebec link that may or may not exist, and put any instance of the one country judging the other in doubt.

	03-08-2002 11:13									#53
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Unfortunately, that happens in sports. (Not that I recognize that the Canadian couple skated better -- it's actually irrrelevant to our present discussion as I see it).

No. It is THE relevant point. That 'irrelevant' fact you mention is the reason for the whole fuss. Now I understand. If you deny that the Canadian couple performed better then it is quite natural to protest the controversy around the awarding of the medals. Yes, that makes sense. I guess that is where I was going with my question to Serb about whether he had eyes or not.

You keep going on about your question. suggest that everyone here honestly answer the following question. Imagine that the roles are reversed. Namely, the Russian couple performs exactly as the Canadian one...
Well, your question is irrelevant. The Russians did not skate as well as the Canadians. They wiped out. There was no equal performance to choose from. The people who were obviously better to any eyes in the building got jobbed out of a gold medal. That is the relevant fact.

Would it make you feel better to know that the shame is not on Russia? The shame is on that joke of a sport they have called figure skating for many years.

	03-08-2002 22:22									#54
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond I meant not the American organizers in particular. They did a great job. I meant the environment that occurred around the event. It's not a fault of the organizers. It's a fault of the host country as a whole.

You should stay away from airports.

	04-08-2002 07:27									#55
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither If you deny that the Canadian couple performed better then it is quite natural to protest the controversy around the awarding of the medals. Yes, that makes sense.

Of course our couple was better. Their programm was MUCH COMPLICATED then yours.

I my self could do a couple of steps on ice with IDEAL performance. Does it mean that I could receive Gold for my ideal performance?
EDIT: Also, I could call to somebody and describe how I fixed the results of last president elections in USA. Does it mean that Bush was elected illegaly?

	04-08-2002 07:34									#56
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Oops... double post.

Last edited by Serb on 04-08-2002 at 07:53

	04-08-2002 07:44									#57
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Vagabond: To answer your question directly, I don't think that anyone would expect the Canadians to cheat. But nobody bats an eye when the French or the Russians do it.

The situation is just too plausible on the one hand and implausible on the other. Ever heard of the Canadia mafia? Would you be scared if the Canadian mob was after you?

The Russians picked the wrong people to cheat. The Canadians are a bunch of choirboys. If y'all would have picked the Americans, there wouldn't have been a second gold handed out.

	04-08-2002 10:24									#58
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quote: Would you be scared if the Canadian mob was after you?

I would be, if they were the Hells Angels. Those ****ers are crazy...

	04-08-2002 10:27									#59
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BTW, Vag, the US is interested in actually prosecuting this mob boss. That means they think they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did what they've accused him of.

Oh, and it's possible that with this new info the medals might be redistributed...and probably not in Russia's favour.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/03/skate_medals020803

	04-08-2002 10:37									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Vagabond: To answer your question directly, I don't think that anyone would expect the Canadians to cheat. But nobody bats an eye when the French or the Russians do it. The situation is just too plausible on the one hand and implausible on the other. Ever heard of the Canadia mafia? Would you be scared if the Canadian mob was after you? The Russians picked the wrong people to cheat. The Canadians are a bunch of choirboys. If y'all would have picked the Americans, there wouldn't have been a second gold handed out.

Well, Kwan slipped on her own, and there was already too much pressure from the other incidents.