04-08-2002 10:38									#61
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This is one wacky story. And it keeps getting weirder.

Now there seems to be a chance that all Salt Lake figure skating medals will be annulled. Even the noncontroversial ones like both male and female solo competitions.

The French judge who got suspended ripped into the IOC and said she would appeal and that she would discuss all the dirty inner workings of international skating. About a day later she withdraws her appeal saying that it would cost too much.

Meanwhile, **** Pound is suggesting that it might be a plan to drop ice dancing permanently from the Olympics. Everyone else seems to be saying "What are you smoking, ****?"

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/0...ing_pount020802

[edit: I forgot that Mr. Pound's first name is so unthinkably bad that it must be censored. ]

	04-08-2002 10:40									#62
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I like **** Pound. He told that Canadian X-country skier to shut her yap about doping in skiing the day before it comes out that Russian skiers were doped to high heaven...

	04-08-2002 10:48									#63
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Yeah, **** don't know ****.

Mind you Becky Scott got her bronze upgraded to a silver. They already caught the Russian that still has the gold doping in another event at Salt Lake. Becky could be the first person in Olympic history to have had all three medals in one event at the same Olympics at one point or another.

	06-08-2002 08:46									#64
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Had this been followed up with the French judge saying she had been pressured to give the Canadians high marks, the scandal that followed would have been much the same. It might even be worse, because people would start pointing at a France Quebec link that may or may not exist, and put any instance of the one country judging the other in doubt.

I don't think so. In that case, there would be just a minor scandal. As Asher said, the world would care. But that would be it. And certainly no second gold would be awarded -- for me this is the most important point.

	06-08-2002 08:50									#65
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No. It is THE relevant point. That 'irrelevant' fact you mention is the reason for the whole fuss. Now I understand. If you deny that the Canadian couple performed better then it is quite natural to protest the controversy around the awarding of the medals. ... You keep going on about your question. suggest that everyone here honestly answer the following question. Imagine that the roles are reversed. Namely, the Russian couple performs exactly as the Canadian one... Well, your question is irrelevant. The Russians did not skate as well as the Canadians. They wiped out.

I don't even want to again discuss who performed better. For the point I am trying to raise here it doesn't really matter. Just for the sake of argument (and only for the sake of argument) I assume that the Canadians were better.

	06-08-2002 08:54									#66
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Vagabond: To answer your question directly, I don't think that anyone would expect the Canadians to cheat. But nobody bats an eye when the French or the Russians do it. The situation is just too plausible on the one hand and implausible on the other. Ever heard of the Canadia mafia? Would you be scared if the Canadian mob was after you? The Russians picked the wrong people to cheat. The Canadians are a bunch of choirboys. If y'all would have picked the Americans, there wouldn't have been a second gold handed out.

So in essence it's racial profiling in action. Or, better to say, national profiling. But thanks for your sincere answer.

	06-08-2002 09:00									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger BTW, Vag, the US is interested in actually prosecuting this mob boss. That means they think they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did what they've accused him of.

He is accused on a number of charges (five, IIRC). So there is a good chance they'll be able to prove at least one of them beyond a reasonable doubt. Thus, even if the accusation related to figure skating doesn't withstand, the FBI doesn't risk too much embarrassment over his arrest. In other words, the FBI has practically nothing to lose here, and a lot to gain. Well, already with the rumor of his involvement, the North American side has gained a lot, irrespective of what is going to happen in court.

	06-08-2002 09:08									#68
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In conclusion, let me tell you the following. It's great that corruption is battered and mobsters get arrested. But still... If the situation with the Canadian and Russian pairs had been symmetrically reversed, practically nothing would have happened. It's even a greater certainty that no second gold would have been awarded to the Russian couple. This situation really stinks.

	06-08-2002 09:13									#69
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"So in essence it's racial profiling in action."

Well, it's not like it would be without precedent. We've heard a lot about the Russian mob leaching off of Russian NHL players in the States, for instance. Really, do you think the impression is unfounded?

Haven't heard much about the world reknowned, feared, and vaunted Canadian mafia. "I gave him an offer he couldn't refuse, eh?"

	06-08-2002 09:14									#70
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Funny how the Russian skaters are all bent out shape over this and threatening to sue everybody. The Canadians on the other hand, are being very quiet. I live in the same area as Jamie Sale and David Pelletier. I would know if they were saying anything as it would be all over the paper. They don't have anything to cover up. Perhaps the Russians do?

Last edited by Loif on 06-08-2002 at 09:31

	06-08-2002 09:29									#71
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "So in essence it's racial profiling in action." Well, it's not like it would be without precedent. We've heard a lot about the Russian mob leaching off of Russian NHL players in the States, for instance. Really, do you think the impression is unfounded?

Sure, the very notion of profiling implies precedents.

I don't think the impression is unfounded.

However this "mobster" argument doesn't excuse what happened during the games.

	06-08-2002 09:32									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Loif Funny how the Russian skaters are all bent out shape over this and threatening to sue everybody. The Canadians on the other hand, are being very quiet. I live in the same city as Jamie Sale and David Pelletier. I would know if they were saying anything as it would be all over the paper. They don't have anything to cover up. Perhaps the Russians do?

LOL! How can you compare? The Canadians have nothing to lose and everything to gain here. Their pictures are not shown by TV together with the mobster's photos.

	06-08-2002 09:32									#73
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Vagabond, I think you are reading too much into the nationalities involved. If the reverse had happened, if the Canadians had wiped out, but still were awarded the gold... then I would agree that a second gold should be given to the Russians in such an obvious case and after an admission by a judge that a 'fix' was in.

However, the story has it's legs not so much for the fact of the poor, hard done by Canadians. No, it has it's legs from the fact that the media finally has a case with which to hang the cans on the 'sport' of figure skating. That 'sport' has had this coming for a long while.

I have even read stories in the local paper about the selection of the top Canadians. I have read admissions that politics and favouritism have more to do with whether Kurt or Elvis get to go to one more Worlds or Olympics than how any contender might perform on any given day. The feeling was that the 'next' one would have to wait for 'this' one to be done. Wait for his 'turn'. I couldn't believe that was being said so openly in a local paper.

I wonder how Gretzky would have felt if his career had been put on hold til he was 23 or 25 so that some has been could have his 'turn'? But, I digress...

A lot of people in sports (media and otherwise) have been waiting to put the boots to figure skating. Now they have the issue. It's unfortunate that it is Canadians and Russians involved, but that is how the cards fell.

	06-08-2002 09:36									#74
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We'll have to agree to disagree then, Vagabond.

	06-08-2002 10:00									#75
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quote: If the reverse had happened, if the Canadians had wiped out, but still were awarded the gold... then I would agree that a second gold should be given to the Russians in such an obvious case and after an admission by a judge that a 'fix' was in.

OK, you would agree. I don't doubt that. But would it actually happen? (I mean the second gold). My common sense tells me it would not.

quote: A lot of people in sports (media and otherwise) have been waiting to put the boots to figure skating. Now they have the issue. It's unfortunate that it is Canadians and Russians involved, but that is how the cards fell.

Perhaps you are right. But this is a separate issue.

	06-08-2002 10:01									#76
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk We'll have to agree to disagree then, Vagabond.

OKay

	06-08-2002 22:37									#77
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Latest newsflash - the French ice dancing pair are ridiculing the idea of a mobster fix... but they admit that they do know the mobster in question and have met with him and talked to him.