01-08-2002 01:18									#1
	Immigrants Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Found this online. I find it quite interesting. Take out the word American and insert your own country's name. Does this happen where you live? Unfortunately I think it happens far too often. In my opinion too many people here in Canada have exactly the same view towards immigrants. I think people who immigrate to other countries should be allowed to bring their customs and traditions with them. Of course they would have to adhere to Canadian laws but to strip them of their culture is too much. Hell, we even do this with our native people here. Anywho, read on if interested and post your point of view:

PS: In no way does this quote reflect my own opinions, which are stated above.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face covered, I believe this is even more appropriate. Read on, please!

This is an editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa newspaper. He did quite a job.


IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans.
However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.

This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom:

THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

	01-08-2002 01:29									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I agree that thing with letting a muslim have hear face covered for drivers license photo is absurd. But we don't have a monolithic culture here, nor are we are all opposed to change as they suggest. America's culture has changed greatly over the years as various groups of immigrants have contributed to it. I also think that since our standard of living greatly surpasses that of many parts of the world we should be generous in allowing immigration.

	01-08-2002 01:33									#3
	Tired of ads?

The editorial goes too far for my taste (the In God We Trust crap, for instance), but I have to agree that the drivers' license thing is nuts. The whole idea of having a picture is so YOU CAN BE IDENTIFIED AS THAT PERSON! Doesn't a veil sorta get in the way of that?

-Arrian

	01-08-2002 01:42									#4
	Support Apolyton

I think the idea of other cultures being accepted
in English North America is to get the better
aspects of the cultures and intergrate them into
our own, (just like english uses words from native,
french, german, latin etc. languages) not to have a mishmash of minorities all going to court for their cultural/relgious rights. All this leads to is a lot
of foreign nationals living in your country bit*hin'
and claiming full rights from day one.

I agree fully with the an American citizen from Tampa.

	01-08-2002 01:44									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Bah. Self-righteous crap.

"CONFORM OR DIE! CONFORM OR DIE!"

	01-08-2002 01:45									#6
	Remove this text

That's pretty much my reaction to the editorial as well, but my opinion on the drivers license stands.

Disagree?

-Arrian

	01-08-2002 01:48									#7
	Support Apolyton

Which is more mature and rational:

"If you don't like the way things are, GET OUT!!!"

or

"If you don't like the way things are, use your rights as a resident and your voice to change the system in a democratic, peaceful manner..."

	01-08-2002 01:49									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

Mature and rational?! Boris, this is Apolyton!!

	01-08-2002 01:50									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There is a small problem with that kind of standpoint that the author has.

(s)he says that any immigrant should leave if they don't like the countries culture, god, flag, way of life and so forth. The small problem is that this is only directed towards immigrants. Why are not american born people that does not like any or all of the recommended to leave the country?

The US is what it is because it allowed millions of people into the country (as long as they wheren't sick) without much fuss about their opinion on apple pie and mama.

	01-08-2002 01:52									#10
	Got spare money?

There's nothing more un-American than telling people to get out if they disagree with how things are...

	01-08-2002 01:54									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

I agree for the most part. The guy is not asking anything unreasonable. Is speaking english too much too ask?

Im an immigrant to this country, but Im not expecting america to become more like New Zealand just because I would feel more comfortable.

	01-08-2002 01:57									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

If some immigrant to the US doesn't want to learn English, let him. As long as the wast majority of the rest of the country doesn't addapt and learn [input obscure language spoken by less than 10K humans] it's his problem.

	01-08-2002 01:59									#13
	Tired of ads?

I don't think you guys understand why I posted this. I'm not trying to say that this happens only in the US. God knows it happens here in Canada. Does it happen in your country? If so, do you agree with it or not? This was not meant to be a "bash the US" thread, not by any means.

I know this happens in Canada. Like I said before, we even do it with the First Nations People who lived here long before we did. Back in the 60's the government took these people off their land and put them into residential schools. They systematically stripped these people of their culture and now have the problem that these people don't know what to do with themselves. The unemployment rate is abysmally high amongst First Nations People, alcoholism runs rampant, etc., largely due to the taking away of their culture. Anyways, a little off topic but there you go.

	01-08-2002 02:01									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin If some immigrant to the US doesn't want to learn English, let him. As long as the wast majority of the rest of the country doesn't addapt and learn [input obscure language spoken by less than 10K humans] it's his problem.

The problem is that when you have non-english speaking immigrants coming in great numbers, they form their own little isolated community that cant communicate with the surrounding population. How does this encourage cultural harmony and understanding?

	01-08-2002 02:02									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Loif; Yes that's quite common even if it's usally a bit more subtle than that.

	01-08-2002 02:13									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

What is?

	01-08-2002 02:20									#17
	Got spare money?

Caligastia: Yes, that might happen. But, that has happend in the US before. New groups of immigrants from different european countries often ended up in the same place and created their own community. I'm not saying that it encourages cultural harmony and understanding but that period passed and the groups became a part of the country. If it doesn't happen with the latest groups something is seriously wrong with the system and something might have to be done about it.

	01-08-2002 02:20									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This editorial could have been written at any point in any country's history. It's normal exclusionary crap.

As an American, it does annoy me that this comes from one of our own. America has become a melting pot that takes the best of all cultures and combines it. The writer wants to lock in his or her particular view of what's "American" at this moment -- missing the whole point of what the US is (at our best).

Freedom belongs to everybody. The small-minded will always fight it, but in the end freedom will bury them.

	01-08-2002 02:21									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Loif: what you asked about. It suits what I can hear or read here in Sweden from time to time.

	01-08-2002 02:24									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I completely agree with this editorial. It isn't about forcing others to conform to what we want. We aren't forcing immigrants to come to this country. What this is about is other people coming here and disrespcting our established culture and customs. Immigrants are ideally coming to our nation top become American, to take part in everything that is America. The author is complaining about those who merely enter this country for monetary gain. They exploit our system while trying to change the basic foundation of the nation. Yes, immigrants should bring some of their experience to the country. No, they should not expect us to change things for their benefit. I say that immigrants are welcome, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on us. If they are not willing to leave their old lives behind them and assimilate into a new culture, then why are thjey leaving their country at all? Money is a shallow reason.

	01-08-2002 02:24									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Caligastia: Yes, that might happen. But, that has happend in the US before. New groups of immigrants from different european countries often ended up in the same place and created their own community. I'm not saying that it encourages cultural harmony and understanding but that period passed and the groups became a part of the country. If it doesn't happen with the latest groups something is seriously wrong with the system and something might have to be done about it.

Well there are people who have lived in Puerto Rican communities all their life here in NYC who dont even know that being born here makes them american citizens. They are going through life as an illegal alien even though they were born here. This is a result of them being isolated within a culture that has seperated itself from the rest of the country.

	01-08-2002 02:30									#22
	Suffering from ads?

How long has the Puerto Ricans been there?

	01-08-2002 02:34									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Nat.: "They" [the immigrants] are a small minority. They can't force a fundamental change to your society even if they wanted to so why whine about it?

	01-08-2002 02:53									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Nat.: "They" [the immigrants] are a small minority. They can't force a fundamental change to your society even if they wanted to so why whine about it?

Hispanics now hold the majority in Texas. Many of them are immigrants, and most are recent descendants (past 100 years.) That's not a "small community."

Rome had a very similar dilemma.

	01-08-2002 02:55									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well Canada wouldn't exist without immigrants. Neither would most other countries on the face of God's green earth. I say we should welcome immigrants and not tell them that they have to conform to what we believe in. As long as they are obeying the law of the country that they immigrate to, why should this be a problem? Are we so worried that we may be assimilated into their culture that we need to stamp it out? Humans never cease to amaze me.

	01-08-2002 03:00									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That's not what I meant. All I am saying is that Immigration does make major changes in culture. The problem is, Political correctness makes it "wrong" to be mainstream american, whereas whichever culture is fashionable at the time can do no wrong.

If one does not like the US, one should not move to said Union.

	01-08-2002 03:00									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I agree that thing with letting a muslim have hear face covered for drivers license photo is absurd. But we don't have a monolithic culture here, nor are we are all opposed to change as they suggest. America's culture has changed greatly over the years as various groups of immigrants have contributed to it. I also think that since our standard of living greatly surpasses that of many parts of the world we should be generous in allowing immigration.

I agree with you on this, Shi.


And besides, this editor seems like he's a child or teenager whining in print, rather than whining vocally.

How about he takes his own immature, irrational advice -- if HE does not like the multi-culturalism of America, HE can use his right to leave.

	01-08-2002 03:00									#28
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Dan Severn Hispanics now hold the majority in Texas. Many of them are immigrants, and most are recent descendants (past 100 years.) That's not a "small community." Rome had a very similar dilemma.

This is exactly the type of situation I am talking about. It isn't impossible to imagine that the majority of hispanics could try to separate from the U.S. and join back with Mexico. Unlikely perhaps, but possible. As for "I don't mind immigrants as long as they follow the laws" I wonder how many of these immigrants are here illegally? That shows a disrepect for our laws. That Muslim lady seems to disregard our liscensing laws.

	01-08-2002 03:02									#29
	Tired of ads?

Somethings that immigration brings are worth while, helpful, and benificial while others can only be described as harmful negative effects.

	01-08-2002 03:06									#30
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by nationalist This is exactly the type of situation I am talking about. It isn't impossible to imagine that the majority of hispanics could try to separate from the U.S. and join back with Mexico.

Why the Hell, exactly, would they wish to be part of Mexico? That would make immigration to the US moot.