02-08-2002 20:44									#61
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the problem with the chinese method is that the culture, which prides itself on male children, has created a situation where there is about one female per ten males.

in those piss-poor backward parts of china, it's gotten so bad that the incest taboo has been broken in order to line up marriages for eligible male children.

	02-08-2002 21:27									#62
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quote: there is about one female per ten males.

Hardly! There is a serious imbalance growing, but it's more like 48%/52%. Still, those are big numbers when you start multiplying by 1.2 billion.

quote: those piss-poor backward parts of china, it's gotten so bad that the incest taboo has been broken in order to line up marriages for eligible male children.

I don't doubt that it's occurred, but I haven't heard of it. I have heard of kidnappings, however.

	02-08-2002 21:34									#63
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I suspect c-cube meant to say mariagble female and male (something like single 18-40 years olds) Still the number seems extreme, even acountint for how a numvercial disparity would be magnified in proporation and pairs marry and leave that pool.

	02-08-2002 21:41									#64
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ah, yes. that statistic i got refers to marriagable females in backwater regions.

not, as it might seem, females overall.

	02-08-2002 22:30									#65
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quote: Originally posted by muxec Languages in Israel: 1. Hebrew 2. Russian 3. Arabic 4. Spainish 5. English (according to survey) We see two more common languages.

Which language that is foreign to Israel is the most used? I bet its English just like they said. You use English. I suppose Russian would come next at the moment.

quote: Oil deposits. Point me on map on the oil.

I have no idea where they are but I recall there were some that were captured in the either the Six Day War or the Yom Kippur War. Obviously they are trivial in comparison to the needed amounts.

Perhaps you should learn to use Google.

http://www.mni.gov.il/english/Oil%2...xploration.shtm

Thats an Israeli government site showing both oil and shale oil deposits.

Sample from the site

quote: Oil: Production from the Heletz field is declining gradually. In 1999, only about 30,000 bbls of oil were produced.

Declining but still it is an oil field in Israel.

Now for the language.

From Bar-Ilan University - Faculty of Humanities - Department of English

http://www.biu.ac.il/hu/lprc/fog0000000007.html

Sample

quote: English is de facto the second language of speakers of both Hebrew and Arabic. It is the main language for external commerce and tourism, and a required language for all Jewish and Arab schools, and for the universities (which teach in Hebrew). French is taught in schools and known by many immigrants.

Now do you get the idea of what support is? Israeli sources don't agree with you. They agree with the CIA factbook.

	02-08-2002 23:33									#66
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I hate Ethelred, he must be Chinese.

	03-08-2002 01:18									#67
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Fraid not Venom. I am a Murican. With lots of different Northern Europeans in my background. Mostly German but fortunatly I have a bit of Irish as well.

You must be from South Africa. You sure are a Boor anyway.

	03-08-2002 02:38									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Given the statement by John I was showing the distastrous consequences of unlimited growth. Reductio Ad Absurdum is not the same as being facetious.

For all intents and purpsose, taking something to absurdity is being flippant. It appeared more as an attempt at humour and not really requiring such disproof, for I doubt Jons statement was intended the way you took it (i.e. literally).

	03-08-2002 03:03									#69
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quote: for I doubt Jons statement was intended the way you took it (i.e. literally).

Thats up to John to say. However I have noticed that he thinks in religious terms for many things. As a consequence I did indeed take him literaly. If he wanted to explain what he meant I assume he would have done so by now. He usually doesn't like the questions I ask when religion is involved so I am not at all surprised the he didn't respond.

Some people would say what John said for other reason than religious ones while still being quite litteral. The idea behind it seems to be based on the concept that inovation comes from individuals and more individuals will inherently result in more inovation. How they reconcile millenia of stagnation in Egypt(once the most populous place on earth) and China is another question so I suspect that they have reasons they are not aware of for reaching the specious conclusion that the number of people count more than the quality of the people's lives.

quote: For all intents and purpsose, taking something to absurdity is being flippant.

Not at all. Many people don't want to accept the fact the the human population cannot continue to grow without limit. Showing that they are being absurd is not flippant its an attempt to get them to think about the consequences of what they are saying.

If I wanted to be funny or flippant it would have been shorter.

	03-08-2002 04:09									#70
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quote: I suspect that they have reasons they are not aware of for reaching the specious conclusion that the number of people count more than the quality of the people's lives.

The quality of life is just another of many factors. The society in which they live is also very important. In America today, for example, technology and science is held to high regard by its society because it can make you rich and famous, thus technology flourishes in America (america is just one example of many like this - Japan and much of Europe are other examples of this too). In contrast societies like the Omish (SP?) of the United States, who are fundementalist Christians i believe, very much dislike technology and live lives not much different from Americans who lived 150 years ago.

Kman

	03-08-2002 08:19									#71
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quote: Why not? Especially since I was specificaly dealing with John Millers bald and unsupported statement that we need as many people as we can get.

I don't think Jon meant that...

quote: Birth rates have only decreased in industrial nations

Right, and I don't think it's a tenuous assumption to say that the world will continue to industrialize.

quote: Its the only kind the Pope finds acceptable and he influences over 1 billion people.

Incidentally, ther have been substancial decreases in the proportion of Catholics in Latin America, recently.

quote: Don't look to Europe for that influences effect. Look to South and Central America.

Huh?

quote: Many countries are not yet doing that. Many countries rate of population growth is what is keeping that from happening.

To a certain extent, that may be true. But there are plenty of other reasons why third world countries are having problems trying to industrialize, such as politics, both internal and external (particularly, protectionism).

quote: Many have cultural reasons for having large families even as the economic situation improves.

Look at France, Spain, or Italy. Cultural anachronisms tend to die with an educated populace.

	03-08-2002 10:52									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I don't think Jon meant that...

Since John has not cleared it up I see no reason to think otherwise. To me that is adequate confimation.

quote: Right, and I don't think it's a tenuous assumption to say that the world will continue to industrialize.

Its an assumption nonetheless. Just as valid or invalid as mine was. Mine was done to make a point.

I find it odd how many have a problem with a simple extension of present trends. Perhaps you found the consequences disturbing and have gone the Kill the Messenger route.

I think my rate of doubling may be excesive though. Perhaps three times a century instead of four would be closer to the actual present rate. Which just postpones things a bit.

quote: Incidentally, ther have been substancial decreases in the proportion of Catholics in Latin America, recently.

Would you care to support that with some statistics? Its still around 90% for most of Latin American so I don't see how any change that has occured could be considered substantial. Interesting perhaps. I know the Mormons are trying real hard to get converts in Latin America. I suspect that more have simply dropped religion altogether than have converted to some other religion.

quote: Huh?

The Pope lost influence on this in Europe and to some extent in the US long ago.

quote: Look at France, Spain, or Italy. Cultural anachronisms tend to die with an educated populace.

Something difficult to achieve in nations with exploding populations and France's population has been stuck at around 50 million for at least a century. Maybe its the snails.